[1) Call to Order] [00:00:04] GOOD EVENING. WELCOME TO THE MONDAY, MAY 18TH MEETING OF THE ORONO PLANNING COMMISSION. WE START EVERY MEETING WITH THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN US. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. THANK YOU. FIRST, ON THE AGENDA, WE'VE GOT A REQUEST FOR MOTION FOR APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA. [3) Approval of Agenda] I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA. I SECOND. THE MOTION BY BRANDABUR, SECOND BY PRCHAL AND FURTHER DISCUSSION. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR, SAY AYE. AYE. MOTION CARRIES. THANK YOU. NEXT ITEM ON THE AGENDA WOULD BE APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM THE APRIL 20TH PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. [4.1) Planning Commission Minutes of April 20, 2026] IF WE COULD GET A MOTION FOR THAT. MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM THE APRIL 20TH, 2026 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. THANK YOU. I'LL SECOND. THANK YOU. WE HAVE A MOTION BY TIFT, SECOND BY JARNOT. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? ALL THOSE IN FAVOR, SAY AYE. AYE. MOTION CARRIES. MOVING RIGHT ALONG. WE'VE GOT THE PUBLIC HEARING. [5.1) LA26-000017, Travis Van Liere Studio, 1520 Bohns Point Road, Variance (Matthew Karney)] IS THE NEXT ITEM 5.1 LA26-000017 1520 BOHNS POINT ROAD. MR. KARNEY. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. I'LL WALK YOU THROUGH THIS VARIANCE FOR BOHNS POINT 1520. IN TERMS OF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE, THIS IS AN AFTER THE FACT VARIANCE REQUEST ULTIMATELY FOR PATIO SPACE AS AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE SIDE SETBACK IMPACT WE'RE LOOKING 6.3FT FROM THE SIDE PROPERTY LINE, WHERE TEN FEET IS REQUIRED FOR THOSE ACCESSORY STRUCTURES SUCH AS PATIOS. GENERALLY, THE PROPERTY IS ZONED LR-1B, AND WE ARE LOCATED IN TIER 1 OF THE STORMWATER QUALITY OVERLAY WITH A 25% HARDCOVER LIMIT. I WILL NOTE THAT THIS PROPERTY DID COME IN AT ABOUT 30% HARDCOVER AND REDUCED AS A PERCENT OR SO AS A PART OF THIS PROJECT, MORE OR LESS. AS AN AFTER THE FACT VARIANCE, THIS PROJECT HAS SOME HISTORY WITH THE CITY. THIS IS A PREEXISTING SURVEY THAT WAS SUBMITTED WITH A ZONING PERMIT IN AUGUST OF 2024. WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE IS ULTIMATELY A PAVER PATIO AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF OTHER LANDSCAPING AND HARDSCAPE IMPROVEMENTS AROUND THE PROPERTY, PRIMARILY LIKE THE REDUCTION OF THIS GRAVEL WALK OVER HERE AND REORIENTING THIS PATIO WITH A POOL PERMIT BEING PURSUED BY A SEPARATE PERMIT. GOT AN AERIAL IMAGE SHOWING YOU WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT HERE IN TERMS OF LIKE A PATIO SPACE OVER HERE. THIS IS REALLY THE AREA OF CONCERN, JUST KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THERE IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF THAT PATIO THAT WAS EXISTING WITHIN THAT SETBACK. IN TERMS OF WHAT STAFF HAD REVIEWED IN LATE SUMMER OF 2024. THIS IS THE PATIO SPACE THAT WAS APPROVED BY MY PREDECESSOR BEFORE I STARTED WITH THE CITY. AND IN LOOKING AT THIS, PARDON ME. THE AREA THAT WE HAVE SHOWN HERE, ALTHOUGH IT DOES APPEAR TO BE GOING OVER THE SETBACK LINE AS WELL, THE DESIGN CHOICE HERE WAS TO USE GRASS OR TURF OPPOSED TO PAVERS OR CONCRETE FOR THAT MATTER. SO THE SMALL ENCROACHMENT THAT WE HAVE HERE WAS PERMITTED. RETAINING WALLS, I WILL NOTE, CAN GO AS CLOSE AS FIVE FEET TO THE SIDE PROPERTY LINE, WHEREAS THE PATIO WOULD BE CUT OFF AT TEN. THIS WAS ULTIMATELY APPROVED AND A NEW PLAN WAS UPLOADED IN APRIL OF 2025, WHICH I'LL CALL THE PROPOSED CONDITION. THIS REFLECTS WHAT IS THERE IN PRESENT DAY AND THE PLAN THAT WAS SUBMITTED, WHICH INCLUDES THE PATIO EXTENDING INTO THE SIDE SETBACK RETAINING WALL IS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE FIVE FOOT SETBACK FOR IT, BUT THE PATIO ITSELF HAS THIS NEW ENCROACHMENT WITHIN THE ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, A SIDE SETBACK OF TEN FEET AND A VISUAL OF ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. SO THE APPLICANT PREPARED THIS GREAT GRAPHIC THAT REALLY SHOWS THE COMPARISON OF ALL THREE OF THE PROPOSALS FOR THE PROJECT, INCLUDING THE EXISTING. SO WE HAVE THE ONCE EXISTING OR PREEXISTING CONDITION SHADED IN BLUE. [00:05:07] WE HAVE IN RED WHAT WAS APPROVED BY STAFF IN 2024 AND IN BLACK WE HAVE WHAT WAS PROPOSED IN 2025 WITH APPROXIMATELY 65FT² OF PATIO PROPOSED. BEYOND THE SETBACK LINE, WHERE THERE WAS NOT EXISTING PATIO AT ONE POINT IN TIME. SO IN TERMS OF PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES, WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF CRITERIA THAT WE HAVE TO CONSIDER IN APPROVING A VARIANCE OF THE 11 CRITERIA THAT I MADE FOR THIS APPLICATION AND IN CONCERT WITH MY COLLEAGUES, THIS APPLICATION MORE OR LESS MEETS NINE OF THOSE CRITERIA. STAFF DOES ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE DIFFICULTIES FACING THE PROPERTY, THAT IT DOES HAVE A UNIQUE HOUSE LAYOUT IN TERMS OF WHERE THE PATIO IS LOCATED, IN RELATION TO THE LAYOUT OF THE HOME, WITH SOME OF THE INGRESS AND EGRESS FOR THE MAIN LEVEL GOING STRAIGHT TO THE PATIO AND WHERE THE SLOPE IS EXPOSING THE LOWER LEVEL WALKOUT. ADDITIONALLY, THE PLAN THAT HAS BEEN PROPOSED EVEN IN 2024 AND WITH THIS PRESENT PLAN, PROVIDES ADEQUATE SCREENING. THAT'S ONE THING THAT IF YOU SAW THE SITE RECENTLY, THERE IS REASONABLE AMOUNTS OF SCREENING ALONG THAT PROPERTY LINE. WE DO NOTE THAT THE PREEXISTING PATIO WAS IN A SIMILAR LOCATION, ALTHOUGH NOT AS SIGNIFICANT OF AN ENCROACHMENT. AND I WILL NOTE AS WELL THAT THE APPLICANT DID PRODUCE A LETTER FROM THE ADJACENT NEIGHBOR OR WRITTEN CORRESPONDENCE FROM THE NEIGHBOR THAT THEY SUPPORT THE APPLICATION. WHAT STAFF WAS HELD UP ON MORE OR LESS, WAS THAT THE PROPOSED VARIANCE DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE NECESSARY FOR THE ENJOYMENT OF THE OWNER'S PROPERTY RIGHTS, AND APPEARS TO SERVE AS A CONVENIENCE FOR THE APPLICANT. WE FEEL THIS IS QUALIFIED FOR OR QUALIFIED BY A PREVIOUS DESIGN, GOING THROUGH AND BEING REVIEWED WITH A MUCH NARROWER PATIO AND BY MUCH. IT'S A MATTER OF THREE FEET, BUT THAT'S ULTIMATELY AROUND THE DISTANCE OF THE ENCROACHMENT THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE AT ABOUT 3.7FT. SO FOR THOSE REASONS, STAFF RECOMMENDS DENIAL OF THE VARIANCE. WE DID NOT RECEIVE ANY OTHER PUBLIC COMMENTS FOR THIS APPLICATION ASIDE FROM THE NOTE THAT WAS SUBMITTED BY THE APPLICANT OR THE OWNER NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH. I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE AND CAN JUMP AROUND BETWEEN GRAPHICS IF NEEDED. THANK YOU, MR. KARNEY. ANY QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? WHAT HAPPENS IF WE OR IF THE CITY COUNCIL ULTIMATELY DENIES THIS? WHAT RESTITUTION IS REQUIRED? THERE'S REALLY TWO ACTIONS THAT ARE POSSIBLE HERE. THE APPLICANT WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO SUBMIT A PLAN THAT CONFORMS WITH THE ZONING REQUIREMENTS, OR COMPLETE A REMOVAL OF THE PORTION OF THE PATIO THAT'S LOCATED WITHIN THE SETBACK SO YOU HAD SAID THAT THERE WAS A HARDCOVER, THAT THIS WAS JUST UNDER 30% WHERE 25% IS ALLOWED, CORRECT? CORRECT. DID THIS INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF HARDCOVER USED IN THE SPACE, OR ARE THEY STILL AT THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT THEY WERE APPROVED TO USE? THE PROJECT INVOLVED THE REDUCTION OF HARDCOVER ON THE PROPERTY. I GUESS MAYBE JUST FURTHER CLARIFY THAT POINT. I'M LOOKING AT THE PACKET. IT SAYS THE PRE EXISTING IN 2024 WAS 11,364FT², OR 30.7. AND THE. AND THE AS BUILT TODAY IS THE 29.72. WHAT WAS THE APPROVED PROJECT? I GUESS MAYBE I THINK THAT'S THE NUMBER WE'RE MISSING CLARIFICATION ON. JUST UNDERSTAND. WHAT IS THE SIZE. AND MAYBE THE APPLICANT CAN ANSWER THIS FOR US. WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THE PROPOSED OR THE ORIGINALLY APPROVED PATIO VERSUS IN TERMS OF HARDCOVER VERSUS WHAT THEY'RE CURRENTLY AT IN THEIR AS BUILT? LET ME TAKE A LOOK AT THAT ONE MOMENT. I'M ALSO INTERESTED IN THIS BECAUSE IF THE APPROVED WAS SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCING THE HARDCOVER, AND NOW IT'S ONLY SLIGHTLY REDUCING THE HARDCOVER, I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE AWARE OF. JUST A REMINDER FOR EVERYONE BEFORE WE GET INTO DISCUSSION WAS JUST ASKING QUESTIONS FOR STAFF. AND THEN WE'LL PROBABLY GET INTO THAT RIGHT AFTER WE GET THIS FOLLOW ON PROCESS. SO THE APPROVED PLAN IN AUGUST OF 2024 WAS FOR 29.22% HARDCOVER. 29.22? YES. AND WHAT WAS THE. WHAT IS THAT FOR SQUARE FOOTAGE? THAT IS FOR. NET EXISTING HARDCOVER OF 10,802FT². [00:10:05] THANK YOU. AND THIS WILL BE IN COMPARISON TO A NET EXISTING HARDCOVER OF 10,988 OR 29.72%. THANK YOU FOR GETTING THOSE NUMBERS. NO PROBLEM. ALL RIGHT. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? I JUST HAD ONE QUESTION. THE AREA IN QUESTION I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY IS THAT IS THAT ALL AT GRADE? JUST TO BE SURE. IS THAT AT GRADE OR IS THAT PART OF THE WALL THAT'S THERE. I WAS LOOKING AT. THERE WE ARE. SO THIS IS AN EXISTING CONDITION FROM A FEW WEEKS AGO PERHAPS. PROPERTY LINE IS, I BELIEVE, JUST BEHIND THE TREES. THIS IS THE WALL THAT'S IN THE SETBACK. AND IF YOU WERE TO DRAW THE LINE, IT WOULD FALL SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN HERE. YEAH. I GUESS I HAVE A QUESTION THEN. THAT WOULD BE A FOLLOW UP. IS THAT CONSIDERED AT GRADE IF IT STEPS DOWN? YEAH IT IS. OKAY. THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? ONE LAST QUESTION. JUST RELATED TO THE HARDCOVER AGAIN IS THE RETAINING WALL. DOES THAT COUNT IN THE HARDCOVER CALCULATION? IT'S EXCLUDED. IT IS EXCLUDED. IT IS DEFINED AS HARDCOVER BUT IT'S EXCLUDED FROM THE CALCULATION. THANK YOU. AND THE RETAINING WALL IS PART ISN'T PART OF THAT SETBACK. I MEAN, BECAUSE THE RETAINING WALL STAYS THERE REGARDLESS OF WHAT. YES. WITHIN OUR PERMITTED ENCROACHMENTS, WE ALLOW RETAINING WALLS TO GO UP TO FIVE FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S VERY HELPFUL. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? ALL RIGHT. SEEING NONE WE'LL GO AHEAD. GO AHEAD AND OPEN IT UP FOR PUBLIC HEARING IF I'M FOLLOWING THAT CORRECTLY [LAUGHTER]. AS A PUBLIC HEARING THOSE WHO WISH TO BE HEARD ON THE APPLICATION, PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS. ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD AND CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING. AND IF THE APPLICANT IS HERE, WISHES TO BE HEARD, PLEASE COME ON UP. STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS. GOOD EVENING EVERYONE. MY NAME IS TRAVIS VAN LIERE. I'M OWNER AND PRINCIPAL OF TRAVIS VAN LIERE STUDIO LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTURE FIRM IN MINNEAPOLIS. WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THE CLIENTS ON THIS PROPERTY FOR THREE YEARS NOW. CLIENTS ARE JOE AND STACY MCCONNELL YOUNG FAMILY. THEY BOUGHT THIS HOUSE IN 2022 ISH. AND THEN SLOWLY KIND OF BEEN MAKING IMPROVEMENTS. SO WE WERE HIRED BY THEM TO DO KIND OF A COMPLETE LANDSCAPE REDO OF THE PROPERTY. AND I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS PROPERTY SINCE 2024. I THINK WE MET WITH MELANIE EARLY ON. AND THEN NOW MATTHEW'S KIND OF BEEN ASSISTING US WITH THIS SO. JUST TO GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY AND A LITTLE BIT OF A COUPLE ADDITIONAL POINTS JUST TO KIND OF MAKE THINGS AWARE, LIKE AS, AS MATTHEW ALLUDED, WE DID SUBMIT FOR A PERMIT. THAT WAS A PREVIOUSLY DESIGNED PLAN BACK IN 2024 THAT WAS APPROVED WENT THROUGH A SERIES OF REVIEW PROCESSES AND MADE SURE THAT WE WERE CODE COMPLIANT. WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN 2024 AND KIND OF WHERE WE'RE AT TODAY IS SOME EXISTING CONDITIONS KIND OF POPPED UP AND REARED THEIR HEAD AS WE WERE DOING CONSTRUCTION. THAT KIND OF CAUSED US TO TO SHIFT AND KIND OF MOVE THINGS AROUND. AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH IS THERE'S AN EGRESS WINDOW THAT WE KIND OF WEREN'T EXPERIENCED WITH HOW DEPTH, THE DEPTH OF IT WAS AND THE GRADING REQUIREMENTS AROUND IT. AND THAT EXISTS ON THAT SUNROOM WINDOW THAT KIND OF HAS THE BAY WINDOW THAT BUMPS OUT. SO THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT GRADE CHANGE HAPPENING OF ABOUT EIGHT FEET BETWEEN THAT ELEVATION OF THAT TERRACE TO DOWN TO WHERE THE POOL TERRACE IS. AND SOME OF THESE EXISTING CONDITIONS STARTED TO REFLECT INTO OTHER THINGS THAT WERE KIND OF STARTING TO MULTIPLY ON THE DESIGN PROCESS. SO WHAT WE LOOKED AT EARLY IN 2025 WAS TRYING TO CONDENSE AND BRING THINGS BACK TO A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPACT PLAN. SO PULLING THE TERRACE THAT WE HAD ORIGINALLY DESIGNED BACK FROM THE LAKESIDE CLOSER TO THE HOME, REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF WALLS THAT WE HAD BECAUSE WE HAD WALLS EXTENDING BEYOND THAT WERE RETAINING A GOOD AMOUNT OF GRADE. AND WE WERE TRYING TO MAINTAIN COST OVERRUNS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WERE GOING ON ON THE PROJECT AND JUST REALLY SIMPLIFY. AND THE CLIENT REALLY FELT LIKE WITH THE PREVIOUS DESIGN THERE, THEY WERE KIND OF BEING ON DISPLAY, SO TO SPEAK, BECAUSE IT WAS FURTHER OUT CLOSER TO THE LAKE AND THEY WERE IMPOSING THEMSELVES ONTO THE NEIGHBOR WITH THAT VIEW CORRIDOR. SO IF YOU COULD SEE THAT PHOTO UP THERE WHERE THE THE CIRCLE IS RIGHT THERE, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PREVIOUSLY APPROVED KIND OF PATIO DESIGN. SO THEY WERE MORE COMFORTABLE GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL KIND OF LOCATION OF WHAT THEY HAD. [00:15:04] AND FROM OUR EARLY CONVERSATIONS, AS MATTHEW ALLUDED TO, WE MET WITH STAFF, WE MADE THE CONVERSATION THAT WE THOUGHT WE INTERPRETED WAS THAT BECAUSE WE HAD A PREVIOUSLY ENCROACHING PATIO, THAT WE COULD MEET THOSE ENCROACHMENTS AND COME BACK, WE ALSO HAD SEVERAL OTHER NON-CONFORMING USES ON THE PROPERTY THAT WE WERE BRINGING INTO COMPLIANCE AT THE TIME WITH THE PROPERTY, AS MATTHEW ALLUDED TO, THERE WAS A DOG RUN THAT WAS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOME THAT HAD 500FT² OF HARDSCAPE THAT WE TOOK OUT AND BROUGHT BACK TO MORE OF A NATURAL PLANTED AREA, SO WE BROUGHT THAT INTO COMPLIANCE. THE OTHER THING YOU'RE NOT SEEING IS THERE'S AN EXISTING FIRE PIT THAT WAS NON-CONFORMING, THAT EXISTED AT THE LAKE THAT WAS ABOUT 200 PLUS SQUARE FEET OF PATIO THAT WE TOOK OUT OF THE PROJECT AS WELL AND BROUGHT IT BACK INTO COMPLIANCE. SO WE KIND OF MADE SEVERAL CONCESSIONS KNOWING THAT IF WE DO THIS, HOPEFULLY THIS WILL HELP WITH THIS SCENARIO. WE SUBMITTED A PERMIT, SET AN UPDATED PERMIT PLAN IN AUGUST OR IN APRIL OF 2025. HOWEVER, STAFF, I THINK, WAS GOING THROUGH SOME CHANGES AT THE TIME, AND WE WERE UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT WE WERE KEEP GOING WITH OUR DESIGN. I THINK WHEN MATTHEW CAME IN TO THIS PROJECT, HE AND REVIEWED IT, THERE WAS SOME LACK OF COMMUNICATION AND WE LOST KIND OF CONTACT. AND WE DIDN'T COME TO REALIZE THAT THIS WAS AN ISSUE UNTIL AFTER THE FACT IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR, WHEN WE WERE TRYING TO WRAP UP THE PERMIT CLOSE OUT OF THIS THING. SO RETROACTIVELY, THIS IS KIND OF THE FIRST THING I'VE EVER HAD TO DO AS A RETROACTIVE. IT ALREADY IS INSTALLED. BUT WE MET WITH STAFF OUTLINED KIND OF THE REASONING FOR WHY WE WERE DOING IT FELT THAT THE CONCESSIONS WE MADE WITH OTHER NON-CONFORMITIES. YOU KNOW, TAKING THOSE OUT, WE FELT THAT THAT WAS A GOOD THING. AND THEN WITH THE FACT THAT THE NEIGHBOR WAS IN SUPPORT OF THIS AS WELL, WE THOUGHT IT WAS A BENEFICIAL TO NOT ONLY THE CLIENTS USE AND HOW THEY KIND OF PLAN TO USE THE PROPERTY BECAUSE THEIR MAIN ACCESS OUT OF THE UPPER LEVEL IS THAT NORTH DOOR THERE. AND THAT'S WHERE THE PINCH POINT OF KIND OF THE SETBACK COMES INTO PLAY WITH ALL OF OUR TERRACES ON THE UPPER LEVEL. SO WE THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS A, A POSITIVE. AND THE OTHER THING THAT WE, I THINK WAS ALLUDED TO IN THE COMMENTS WAS THE WIDTH OF OUR PREVIOUSLY PERMITTED PATIO VERSUS WHAT IT IS CURRENTLY. WE ARE THREE FEET WIDER. THE REASON WE ARE THREE FEET WIDER IS WE CAME TO REALIZE THAT THE PATIO WITH THE FURNITURE DINING TABLE LAYOUT AND JUST THE GRADE CHANGE AND CONCERN ABOUT SAFETY, THEY HAVE YOUNG KIDS. WE JUST WANTED TO GIVE ENOUGH BREATHABLE, USABLE SPACE THAT SOMEBODY COULD WALK WITHOUT HAVING THE POTENTIAL TO FALL DOWN THAT HILL. SO WE'VE GOT A HEDGE ON THAT HILL AND EVERYTHING. SO THAT'S WHY THE PATIO WIDENED. SO WE BASICALLY BROUGHT EVERYTHING BACK CONDENSED, WIDENED THE PATIO A LITTLE BIT, AND TRIED TO MEET ALL THE DEMANDS THAT THE CLIENT WAS ASKING FOR US TO DO WITH THIS NEW DESIGN. SO HOPEFULLY THAT MAKES A LITTLE BIT MORE BACKGROUND INTO THAT. COMMISSIONER CORRECT. SO THE DINING AREA IN THIS IS GOING TO BE THE SOLID RECTANGLE AFTER THE THREE KIND OF STEPS? YES WHAT'S THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THAT? DO YOU KNOW OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD? AND HOW DOES THAT COMPARE TO THE ACTUAL DINING AREA THAT WAS BUILT? IS IT THE SAME SQUARE FOOTAGE OR IS IT? SO I HAVE THIS. THE SQUARE FOOTAGE IS BECAUSE I KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO COME UP THE PREVIOUS PATIO WAS ABOUT 314. IF YOU DON'T COUNT ANY OF THESE ADDITIONAL STEPPING STONES OR WHATEVER. THE ORIGINAL PERMITTED PATIO WAS 242, BUT THAT DIDN'T INCLUDE ANY OF THESE STEPS OR STEPPING STONES AS WELL. OUR CURRENT AREA, THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW, WE'RE RIGHT AT 350. BUT AGAIN, THIS IS KIND OF TAKING OUT CERTAIN ASPECTS LIKE THE STEPS AND ALL THIS OTHER STUFF. I SHOULD ALSO POINT THE HARDCOVER IS A LITTLE MISLEADING. NOT JUST THIS PATIO. IT'S THE WHOLE PROPERTY IN GENERAL BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SIGNIFICANT DRIVEWAY. WE HAVE A POOL THAT WE'RE ADDING. SO WE'RE MAKING ADJUSTMENTS TO THE HARDCOVER THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE PROJECT. SO IT'S NOT JUST THIS PATIO, IT'S OTHER THINGS THAT ARE RELATED TO THOSE TWO NUMBERS THAT YEAH. AND JUST TO BE CLEAR FROM THOSE TWO NUMBERS, YOU ENDED UP HIGHER THAN THE NUMBER THAT WAS APPROVED IN 2024, CORRECT? YES. WHICH IS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE ORIGINAL APPROVED DINING VERSUS WHAT WAS BUILT. YES. SO A QUESTION FOR ME IS, WHEN YOU GUYS WERE DOING THE INSTALL, I ASSUME YOU HAD PROPERTY MARKERS FOR PROPERTY [00:20:02] LINE. DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE GOING PAST THE SETBACK LINES WHEN YOU'RE DOING IT? NO, WE INTERPRETED THE CODE FROM OUR REVIEW MEETINGS WITH STAFF THAT WE COULD ENCROACH TO THAT LEVEL OF WHAT THE PREVIOUS PATIO WAS, AND WE KNEW THAT WALLS WERE PERMITTED. SO WE MADE THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE PATIO WAS GRANDFATHERED INTO THAT SETBACK. SO THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. AND THAT'S THE I WOULD SAY THE MAIN DISCONNECT. THAT'S A MISTAKE ON OUR PART BECAUSE WE INTERPRETED WHAT WAS TOLD TO US DIFFERENTLY THAN WHAT WHAT WAS NOW STATED. ANYONE ELSE QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT. IF YOU MIGHT BE, MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE. IF WE HAVE QUESTIONS DURING THE DISCUSSION, THAT'D BE GREAT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. BEING I WENT OUT OF ORDER AND DID OUR PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE APPLICANT'S PRESENTATION. WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT. SO WE'LL BRING IT BACK HERE FOR DISCUSSION. I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY WANTS TO START WITH ANYTHING. THIS ONE'S INTERESTING FOR ME. I MEAN IT. IT'S USUALLY IN FROM MY EXPERIENCE IT IS OR IT ISN'T, YOU KNOW, VARIANCE AND AFTER THE FACT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE FIRM ON. HOWEVER, I THINK IN MY PERSPECTIVE, JUST TO START, I THINK HAVING IT AT GRADE IS A LITTLE BIT MORE REASONABLE TO ME. IT'S A DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCE ON TOP OF THAT BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE A RETAINING WALL FIVE FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. SO THAT MEANS IN THEORY, WHAT WE'D BE ASKING FOR IS TO, YOU KNOW, CREATE, YOU KNOW, DIRT [LAUGHTER] FOR THAT LITTLE GAP BETWEEN THE RETAINING WALL AND THE PATIO. AND AGAIN, IT JUST WALKS THAT GRAY AREA BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A WIDTH OF, IF I'M LOOKING AT IT CORRECTLY, TEN FEET, TEN INCHES FOR, FOR ENJOYMENT OF THAT PATIO, WHICH MAKES IT PRETTY NARROW WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO HAVE SEATING ON BOTH SIDES. AND 9 OUT OF THE 11 PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES ARE UNCONTESTED IN THE OPINION OF STAFF. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S REASONABLE. WE HAVE SUPPORT BY THE NEIGHBORS, WHICH IS NOT USUALLY SUPPOSED TO BE WAY WE WEIGHT IT, BUT IT CERTAINLY IS BETTER THAN HAVING RESISTANCE FROM THE NEIGHBORS. SO I'M CONFLICTED, ESPECIALLY BEING, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING AN IMPROVEMENT IN FROM THE ORIGINAL CONDITION TO THE PROPOSED. GRANTED, IT'S A HALF A PERCENT INSTEAD OF A 1% IMPROVEMENT FROM YOU KNOW, FROM THE CHANGES THAT THEY MADE, IT STILL IS AN IMPROVEMENT, NO LESS. AND THAT'S SOMETIMES ONE OF THE MARKERS THAT WE HAVE WHEN WE'RE ENTERTAINING VARIANCES. SO NOT TO BE INFLUENTIAL. I JUST WANTED TO CALL THOSE THINGS OUT THERE. I FEEL LIKE THOSE ARE SOME, SOME PRACTICAL THINGS FOR ME THAT I WOULD BE PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT MORE OPEN MINDED THAN I NORMALLY WOULD BE. ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY COMMENTS? BECAUSE I'M NEW. I DID MY DUE DILIGENCE AND I WENT TO THE PROPERTY AND THE OWNERS HAPPENED TO BE THERE. SO I ACTUALLY WALKED OUT ON THE PROPERTY AND UNDERSTANDING A LITTLE BIT MORE THAT THOSE WERE ROCKS WITH THE GRASS OF WHERE THAT WOULD BE. THE DESIGN THAT THEY HAVE IN PLACE IS CLOSER TO THEIR PROPERTY. AND FROM A NEIGHBOR'S PERSPECTIVE, THE DESIGN THAT IS OUTLINED IN THE RED, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ORIGINAL ONE. WHAT THEY HAVE DONE NOW, I THINK IS MORE RESPECTFUL TO THE NEIGHBOR AND THE REALLY THAT SEGMENT IN YELLOW OFF TO THE LEFT IS YOUR ONLY PART THAT ENCROACHES ON THIS. AND I DO THINK, AS TRAVIS HAD MENTIONED, THAT HE JUST WASN'T AWARE THAT HE WAS INTERPRETING THIS WRONG. AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S WORKED WITH ORONO BEFORE OR NOT, BUT I CAN SEE WHERE THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING. AND AGAIN, I'M NEW, SO I'M NOT TRYING TO SWAY THE VOTE ON THIS, BUT THE WAY THAT IT'S DESIGNED NOW, IT MAKES MORE SENSE IN A, IN A, HOW IT SHOULD BE USED IN THAT SPACE COMPARED TO WHAT THE RED DESIGN OUTLINES JUST FROM A NEIGHBORLY PERSPECTIVE AS WELL. AND, AND I WAS TALKING TO SHANE EARLIER ABOUT LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF THIS DOESN'T GO THROUGH UNDERSTANDING WHAT WOULD BE DONE AND IF YOU HAD TO CUT OUT PART OF THE PATIO TO MEET THOSE AND PUT THOSE PAVERS BACK IN IT WOULD, IT WOULD PROBABLY CAUSE SOME AREA OF THE LAND WOULD SHIFT A LITTLE BIT. I THINK JUST FROM THE WAY THAT IT'S SET UP NOW AND FROM WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM STAFF ABOUT HOW IT'S SET UP WITH THE, WITH THE LAND AND HOW IT COULD GO INTO THE ENCROACHMENT AREA DOWN BELOW SO. YEAH, NO, I APPRECIATE THAT. I THINK THAT'S NOTED, ALTHOUGH ONE CLARIFICATION, IF WE, IF THERE WAS PAVERS THERE, WE WOULD HAVE TO STILL COUNT THAT AS HARDCOVER SO WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PUT HARD, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PUT PAVERS THERE EITHER, WHICH AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IT JUST GETS INTO THIS GRAY AREA WHERE YOU GO, ARE WE REALLY IMPROVING ANYTHING? [00:25:07] AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT AS BINARY IS OR ISN'T. YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TIMES IT'S HOW WE LOOK AT THIS. BUT THIS IS JUST A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FOR ME. AND THAT'S SO I AGREE COMMISSIONER ROYAL THAT THAT'S THE SAME DIFFICULTY I'M HAVING HERE. CHAIRMAN QUICK. PLEASE. YOU GUYS TOUCHED ON MOST OF MY POINTS. THANK YOU TO THE APPLICANT FOR YOUR FURTHER INSIGHT. THAT WAS HELPFUL. I THINK JUST GIVING SOME ADDITIONAL COLOR. I THINK FIRST OFF, YOU KNOW, IT'S NON-CONFORMING. IT WAS A NON-CONFORMING PATIO, EXCUSE ME. AND, AND AS FAR AS THIS VARIANCE IS CONCERNED, IT'S A FURTHER NON-CONFORMANCE, IF YOU WILL, OF THAT PATIO. SO I THINK THAT'S THE HARD PILL TO SWALLOW. ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK I KNOW WE DON'T COUNT IN HARDCOVER, BUT THERE'S A LARGE REDUCTION IN THE RETAINING WALL, WHICH I THINK SHOULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR. WITH THAT, IT'S FURTHER FROM THE LAKE WHICH WE TALKED ABOUT AND ADEQUATE SCREENING NOT ONLY FROM THE LAKE, BUT FROM THE NEIGHBOR I THINK. LOOKING AT THE LARGER PROJECT THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED, TRYING TO KIND OF THINK, WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN APPROVED POTENTIALLY AT THAT TIME? ALTHOUGH THIS IS AN INCREASE IN HARDCOVER AS PROPOSED OR COMPARED TO WHAT WAS APPROVED. SORRY. IT THE OVERALL PROJECT STILL WOULD HAVE HAD A REDUCED HARDCOVER. AND WITH THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT THEY HAD GIVEN UP, MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN APPROVED AT THE TIME. AGAIN, THAT'S A WHAT IF QUESTION. BUT I THINK LOOKING AT THE OVERALL PROJECT IT IS WOULD HAVE REDUCED THE HARDCOVER STILL. AND THEN AGAIN CHAIR MENTIONED JUST THE NEIGHBOR SUPPORT. I THINK THAT GOES A LONG WAY FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. SO THOSE ARE KIND OF MY POINTS I NOTED DOWN AGAIN, THE LARGE PILL TO SWALLOW IS JUST TAKING A NON-CONFORMING PATIO AND MAKING THAT WORSE. BUT I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT KIND OF PAINT A LITTLE BIT ROSIER OF A PICTURE THAN JUST TAKING A NON-CONFORMING PATIO AND MAKING IT LARGER. I PERSONALLY WOULD BE IN APPROVAL OF THE APPLICATION AND NOT IN DENIAL, BUT I JUST WANTED TO PUT MY OPINION OUT THERE. THANK YOU COMMISSIONER BRANDABUR. I WILL ALSO JUST STATE THAT I THINK YOU'RE I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. I THINK THIS CASE, THIS IS NOT A SITUATION WHERE THE APPLICANT WAS TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING. I THINK IT TRULY WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE. AND SO I RECOGNIZE THAT AS WELL. AND I THINK TO ALL THE POINTS JUST MADE AND TO THE POINT YOU'RE MAKING RIGHT THERE, THAT'S WHAT REALLY SEPARATES THIS INSTANCE FOR ME THAN OTHER AFTER THE FACT VARIANCES. I THINK WE DO NOT WANT TO CREATE A PRECEDENCE FOR APPROVING THINGS AFTER THE FACT. BUT IN THIS CASE, THE APPLICANT SHOWED A CLEAR WILLINGNESS TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS, GO THROUGH THE STEPS. IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE WAS AN HONEST MISCOMMUNICATION AROUND SOME OF THE DETAILS HERE WHERE WE'RE LANDING DOESN'T SEEM FAR ENOUGH OFF WHAT WAS INITIALLY APPROVED. WHEN IT COMES TO THE FUNDAMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS THAT THAT WE SHOULD DENY THIS. SO YEAH, I'M IN ALIGNMENT WITH THE OTHER COMMENTS TONIGHT. I THINK I'M COMFORTABLE WITH THIS GOING FORWARD I'LL JUST BE THE COUNTER OPINION AT LEAST SO THAT WE'VE GOT ONE ON FILE. I THINK MY STRUGGLE WHEN I LOOK AT THIS IS AND WHERE I GET REALLY HUNG UP IS THE PATIO. THE DINING AREA DOESN'T JUST GET DOESN'T JUST GET MOVED. RIGHT? FOR ME, I WOULD BE YEP. LET'S GO WITH IT IF IT JUST GOT MOVED. SQUARE FOOTAGE WITH THE LIKE THE WIDTH, THE LENGTH ARE THE SAME. IT JUST KIND OF GOT MOVED. I WOULD BE LIKE, YEP, THAT MAKES SENSE. IT WAS A HONEST MISTAKE. IT FIT BETTER OVER HERE. MY STRUGGLE IS IT DOESN'T JUST GO TOWARDS THE PROPERTY LINE. IT ALSO GOES THE OTHER DIRECTION. SO IT LITERALLY WAS MAXIMIZING THAT SPACE. AND THAT'S WHERE I START TO GET KIND OF. WAS THIS REALLY KIND OF THAT? OR WAS IT A NO WE JUST WANT A BIGGER PATIO THAN WHAT WAS APPROVED. WE CAN'T GO BACK AND UNDERSTAND WHY THE SMALLER, SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER, SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER. WE'RE NOT TALKING 5, 10, 15. WE'RE TALKING 35%, 40% SMALLER PATIO WAS WHAT WAS APPROVED. THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I GET HUNG UP. IT IT'S SUCH A DRASTIC SHIFT IN ALL DIMENSIONS THAT I HAVE TO SAY IS, DO WE REALLY WANT TO START LETTING PEOPLE HAVE THIS KIND OF A RUNWAY, WHICH IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, OF SAYING, HEY, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING GETS APPROVED, STAMPS ON IT. YOU GO, CAN'T SPEAK FOR ANY OF THAT, BUT COME BACK TO THE CITY COUNCIL. THEY CAN SAY, [INAUDIBLE]. YEAH, WE CAN KIND OF JUSTIFY IT. GO. THAT'S KIND OF MY HANG UP ON THE WHOLE THING. AGAIN, IF THIS REALLY WOULD HAVE JUST BEEN A HERE'S A 200 SOME SQUARE FOOT DINING SPACE THAT'S JUST MOVED INTO A BETTER POSITION. OH, WE THOUGHT WE COULD DO IT. SURE. LET'S GO. YEAH. I APPRECIATE THE REALLY GOOD COMMENTS. AND I THINK SO MANY OF THESE APPLICATIONS ALWAYS HAVE DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON, [00:30:05] AND THAT SOMETIMES ALLOWS US TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF LIBERTY AND HOW WE END UP. SO PUTTING THAT OUT THERE AS COMMENTS IS REALLY HELPFUL. I ALSO THINK THAT I ALWAYS LOOK AT THIS AS LIKE, WELL, WHAT COULD HAVE GONE THERE? YOU COULD MAKE THAT COULD MAKE THAT RETAINING WALL THREE FEET WIDER [LAUGHTER] AND IT WOULD MAKE NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS. BUT THEN YOU'RE LIKE, OH, WHAT IF IT'S A STEP RETAINING WALL? AND THAT'S AN ACTUAL SEAT NOW AT A PATIO, YOU KNOW, AND THAT THAT'S A RETAINING WALL, BUT IT'S ALSO BEING SERVED AS A FUNCTION. AND IF I'M GOING TO HANG MY HAT ON ANYTHING, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I'M PUTTING SOME DISCRETION HERE IN THE FACT THAT THAT BECOMES A NARROW SPACE FOR USE. AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU WALK THE LINE OF MAKING IT VERY ARGUABLE WHETHER THAT'S A CONVENIENCE OR A UTILITY, BUT TEN FEET IS KIND OF NARROW IF YOU'RE TRYING TO HAVE SEATING ON BOTH SIDES AND ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON. NOT TO REGURGITATE, I THINK ARE IS ENOUGH FOR ME TO FEEL COMFORTABLE BEING SUPPORTIVE OF THIS VARIANCE. AND UNLESS THERE'S ANYBODY THAT'S OPPOSED TO THAT OR HAS ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD, WE CERTAINLY COULD MAKE A MOTION. I WOULD LIKE TO ADD JUST ONE THING AND THAT IS THE. I'M HEARING THE CONCERN FOR SETTING PRECEDENT AND NOT THAT WE CAN'T GET PAST THAT, BUT WANTING TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS KIND OF AFTER THE FACT VARIANCE DOESN'T BECOME MORE COMMONPLACE BECAUSE IT IS REALLY CHALLENGING AND NOT WHERE WE WANT TO BE. AND SO THEN I WOULD JUST ASK THE QUESTION IF THERE'S ANY ADDITIONAL LANGUAGE OR ANYTHING WRITTEN THROUGH THE PERMITTING PROCESS SO THAT IT IS LESS LIKELY TO BE MISINTERPRETED THAT IF YOU'RE NEAR THE SETBACK LINE AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE IN THE PROJECT, THAT THAT COMES BACK FOR QUESTIONS TO STAFF MORE READILY, OR IF THERE'S A, IF THERE'S A WAY TO DELINEATE THAT A BIT MORE CLEARLY SO THAT IT'S NOT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. SO MAYBE IT, MAYBE IT IS. BUT JUST TRYING TO LEARN FROM, FROM THIS EXAMPLE. YEAH. SO JUST FOR A PERMITTING PROCESS, WHEN YOU SUBMIT TO US, WE REVIEW IT. AND THEN IF THERE'S AN PERMITS GET ISSUED ALL THE TIME. OFTENTIMES IF A PROJECT COMES THROUGH AND AMENDMENTS HAPPEN AS PROJECTS MOVE ON AND GO ON, WE OFTEN ARE PUTTING STAMPS ON AND COMMENTS ON AND ON PERMIT CARDS THAT IF YOU'RE MAKING AMENDMENTS, IF YOU HAVE EDITS IN THE FIELD, PLEASE UPLOAD THEM. THEY REQUIRE REVIEWS DEPENDING ON THE SCALE OF THE AMENDMENT. WE'LL EVEN STOP PROJECTS AND SAY, YOU HAVE TO STOP CONSTRUCTION UNTIL THIS CAN BE APPROVED BECAUSE THERE'S DETAILS THAT NEED TO BE CLARIFIED OR WHATNOT. SURE. SO IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS COMMUNICATED. OKAY. HOWEVER, AND THROUGH PERMITTING, WE OFTEN SEE WHERE THINGS GOT BIGGER, GOT MOVED, CHANGED IN THE FIELD AS THINGS GO AND THEY'RE CONFORMING TO THE CITY CODE. WE CAN DEAL WITH THEM ADMINISTRATIVELY IF THEY'RE NOT CONFORMING TO THE CITY CODE. LIKE THIS CASE, THE APPLICANT HAS TWO OPTIONS. THEY CAN EITHER ASK, THEY CAN REMOVE IT AND PUT THEIR IMPROVEMENT INTO CONFORMANCE WITH THE CITY CODE, AND WE CAN HANDLE IT ADMINISTRATIVELY OR EVERY, EVERY APPLICANT, EVERY RESIDENT CAN REQUEST A VARIANCE AND COME THROUGH THE PROCESS AND, AND SUBMIT THEIR PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES TO MAKE THAT REQUEST, WHICH IS THE CASE BEFORE YOU TONIGHT. RIGHT. I THINK IT'S JUST THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY NEED TO DO THAT, WHICH WAS IN QUESTION IN THIS TIME. SO JUST AND I THINK IT'S JUST HELPFUL FOR THE RECORD THAT WE WANT TO TRY TO AVOID THAT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. YEAH. I THINK YOU KNOW, AND AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK, BUT YOU LOOK AT THE RETAINING WALLS FIVE FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE, THAT'S WHERE IT CAN BE. AND SO YOU COULD SEE HOW THIS TRANSLATES INTO A CONVERSATION WHERE WE COULD PUT THAT THERE OR YOU COULD PUT IT HERE. WELL, YOU PUT IT FIVE FEET, LET'S PUT IT THERE. AND NOW WE'VE GOT AN EXTRA SPACE. AND WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE PUTTING PAVERS THERE OR NOT PUTTING PAVERS THERE OR MULCH THERE OR NOT. YOU KNOW IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN ON SITE DECISION, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WELL WHY WOULDN'T YOU JUST CLOSE THIS OFF? AND IF YOU WEREN'T AT THAT APPLICATION MEETING, YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN. YOU'RE JUST POURING CONCRETE WHETHER IT'S THERE OR THERE. AND AGAIN, ARGUABLY IT'S BELOW GRADE. SO LIKE, AS FAR AS LIKE A LOT OF THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE THESE RULES IS BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT IT TO BE SO CLOSE TO PROPERTY LINE ALSO HAS TO DO WITH DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE IS MITIGATED SITE LINE'S MITIGATED BECAUSE IT'S LITERALLY TECHNICALLY BELOW GRADE. SO FOR, FOR THOSE REASONS, I THINK THIS IS DIFFERENT. I'LL JUST ADD MY FINAL COMMENTS. OBVIOUSLY, LIKE EVERYTHING YOU GUYS WERE SAYING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRIVACY SCREENING, BEING THERE YOU KNOW, NEIGHBOR SUPPORT, I GUESS I JUST LOOK AT IT AS AT IT AS A, [00:35:08] IF I HAD TO OR AN APPLICANT HAD TO BRING IT FORWARD BASED ON BUILDING TO THOSE SETBACKS, THEY WOULD PROBABLY ASK FOR A VARIANCE BECAUSE I THINK THAT PATIO WOULD BE TOO SMALL TO USE. SO HAD THEY KNOWN THE NEW REQUIREMENTS, I THINK THEY WOULD HAVE PRESENTED IT AS A VARIANCE. WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE APPROVED IT AND IT WOULD HAVE WENT THROUGH. SO I GUESS I CAN GET BEHIND WHAT EVERYONE SET UP HERE, AS WELL AS THINKING BACK TO HOW WOULD THIS RUN THE COURSE HAD IT STARTED TODAY AND BEEN PRESENTED TO US AND I THINK WE WOULD BE BEHIND IT. WELL, TO PUT IT ANOTHER WAY THEN, I MEAN THEN YOU WOULD. AND GRANTED, WE GENERALLY ARE MORE FIRM ON AFTER THE FACT VARIANCES, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE IT, THEN WE WOULD BE DENYING IT SIMPLY BECAUSE OF AFTER THE FACT VARIANCE. SO I MEAN IT'S NOTED, BUT I THINK THAT YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT I'M SAYING. I THINK IT'S WALKING THE LINE. BUT YOU KNOW, TEN FEET IS SOMETIMES THAT COULD BE A PROBLEM. YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO ACTUALLY ENJOY IT, THAT MIGHT NOT BE JUST NECESSARILY A CONVENIENCE. I THINK THAT MIGHT BE UTILITY. SO I'M GONNA, I'M GONNA EXERCISE THAT GRAY AREA AS A MITIGANT FOR VARIANCE. I JUST HAVE ONE MORE THING AND I MAY HAVE MISSED IT, BUT FOR STAFF, WHEN THIS FIRST CAME THROUGH, WAS THIS AN ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVED PROJECT OR DID THIS COME TO THE COUNCIL THE FIRST TIME FOR A VARIANCE REQUEST FOR ANYTHING ON IT? OR WAS IT JUST A. YEP. BECAUSE THIS WAS WITHIN THIS TEN FEET, IT DIDN'T HAVE TO COME HERE. SO WE NEVER SAW IT. THAT'S CORRECT. WHICH ONE? IT WAS ADMINISTRATIVELY APPROVED. IT WAS INITIALLY SUBMITTED IT WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE WHOLE PROJECT TO COME THROUGH THIS PROCESS. CORRECT. THE RED OUTLINE OF THE PATIO IS CONFORMING TO THE CODE, SO THAT WAS APPROVED BY STAFF. THE NEW, WHAT YOU SEE TODAY DOESN'T MEET THE CODE, SO STAFF WASN'T ABLE TO APPROVE IT. SURE. YEAH. AND THAT'S FAIR. I MEAN, A LOT OF TIMES WHEN YOU COME OUT AND HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS, THAT STUFF GETS MORE INGRAINED IN IN CONVERSATION. BUT. ALL RIGHT. DO WE DO WE HAVE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OR WOULD WE HAVE A MOTION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER? FURTHER COMMENTS ARE HAPPILY WELCOME. BUT I FEEL LIKE WE'VE MADE SOME REALLY GOOD POINTS BUT AND I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN DO THIS, BUT ARE WE ALLOWED TO GET STAFF'S OPINION ON THEIR COMMUNICATION WITH THE APPLICANT JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DIDN'T, I MEAN THEY WERE THE ONE COMMUNICATING WITH THEM. I KNOW WE ALL FEEL LIKE WE TOOK THE APPLICANT'S WORD AND THAT IT WASN'T ERRONEOUS, BUT ASK STAFF THEIR, THEIR OPINION OR INPUT ON THEIR COMMUNICATION WITH THE APPLICANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT ALL BEING FOOLED IN A WAY. THIS PLAN WAS UPLOADED AND I WAS MADE NOTE OF IT IN APRIL OF 2025. I, WITHIN THREE WEEKS, SENT AN EMAIL TO THE APPLICANT ON RECORD AND DID NOT HEAR A RESPONSE FOR APPROXIMATELY SEVEN MONTHS UNTIL I REACHED OUT AS A PART OF A NATURAL END OF YEAR CLOSEOUT. DO WE HAVE A STATUS ON THIS PERMIT? ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND TO MY REVIEW COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS? AND AFTER THAT EMAIL HAD GOTTEN THROUGH IN DECEMBER, WE STARTED MEETING WITH THE APPLICANT SIDE AND DISCUSSING A PATH FORWARD. BUT MY UNDERSTANDING, I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS CONSTRUCTED WHEN THAT PLAN WAS SUBMITTED OR AT WHAT POINT IN 2025. BUT I MADE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO SEND A REVIEW COMMENT. ONCE I GOT THAT PLAN IN AND NOTICED THAT THERE WAS A POTENTIAL ENCROACHMENT ON THE SITE PLAN. ONE OTHER QUESTION. DO WE KNOW IF THERE WAS ANY PREVIOUS VERSION OF THIS BEFORE THE ONE ORIGINALLY APPROVED THAT HAD A VARIANCE THAT WAS THEN PULLED OUT OF IT SO IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO TO A VARIANCE? IT DIDN'T REQUIRE A VARIANCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. SO WHEN IT WAS SUBMITTED FOR IN AUGUST OF 24 THIS DIDN'T REQUIRE A VARIANCE. THIS WAS NOT PATIO. THIS WAS GRASS OR TURF NOT REQUIRING ONE. IF THERE WAS A VERSION OF THIS THAT WOULD HAVE REQUIRED A VARIANCE THAT WAS THEN ALTERED BEFORE IT WAS SUBMITTED? YEAH. SO I BELIEVE AT ONE POINT THE BUILDER OF THE HOME WAS MEETING WITH, WITH STAFF. AND THERE WAS DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS PATIO AND HOW TO CONSTRUCT IT INTO THE SIDE YARD SETBACK. AS NOTED, IT WAS A PREVIOUS PLANNER WHO'S NO LONGER WITH THE CITY WHO WAS HANDLING IT. BUT I DO RECALL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE LANDSCAPING OF THE PLAN. BUT AT THE TIME, WITH THE HOME AND THE PROJECT, THAT WAS THE FOCUS. AND SO WHEN THAT PERMIT WAS SUBMITTED, THE PATIO WAS CONFORMING TO THE CITY CODE, WHICH WAS OF 2024. I THINK JUST TO CLEAN THAT UP A LITTLE BIT, WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT IF WE GET INTO LIKE WHETHER WE BELIEVE IT WAS AN ACCIDENT OR NOT OR, OR PURPOSEFUL OR NOT, AND DOES THAT IMPACT YOUR DECISION? IF IT DOESN'T, THEN IT'S PROBABLY NOT FOR DISCUSSION. THAT'S THE HARD PART IS YOU'RE LEANING ON STAFF TO ASK THEM WHAT THEIR RECOLLECTION WAS. [00:40:04] I THINK STAFF'S GOING TO RECALL THAT THEY'RE. THAT THEY MADE THEIR POINT OF WHAT THEIR CLARITY WAS. AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WASN'T AN ACCIDENTAL MISTAKE. I FEEL LIKE IF WHETHER IT IS OR IT WASN'T, I THINK I PROBABLY WOULD STILL BE IN SUPPORT OF IT. OF COURSE, I WOULD RATHER HAVE IT FOLLOW THE RIGHT PROCESS, BUT IF PEOPLE HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION OF THAT, I THINK GO ON RECORD, I THINK SAY THAT. BUT IF WE IF WE FEEL LIKE WE WOULD HAVE APPROVED IT, EVEN THOUGH WE WOULD LIKE TO NORMALLY FOLLOW THE PROCESS, THEN, THEN LET'S DO THAT. I BELIEVE THAT IF THE VARIANCE HAD ORIGINALLY BEEN REQUESTED, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE, BUT I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN SUPPORT OF THE VARIANCE BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN TO BUILD CLOSER TO THE LAKE. AND FOR ME, I WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE IN FAVOR OF THE CURRENT PLAN. SO GIVEN THAT AND ALL THE OTHER DISCUSSION. I WILL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE LA26-17 AS APPLIED. I SECOND. ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE A MOTION BY PRCHAL SECONDED BY ROYAL. ANY OTHER DISCUSSION BEFORE WE VOTE? ALL RIGHT. SEEING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SAY AYE. AYE. OPPOSED? AYE. MOTION CARRIES. THAT'S 1, 2, 3, 4. 01, 2, 3, 4, 5. 6 AYES AND 1 NAY. THE DISSENSION IS COMMISSIONER WELTZIN. ALL RIGHT. MOTION CARRIES. THANK YOU. THAT CLOSES PUBLIC HEARINGS BRINGS US ON A NEW BUSINESS. [6.1) Average Lakeshore Setback Discussion (Laura Oakden)] WE ARE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. MS. OAKDEN. SEE IF IT WORKS WHEN THEY BRING UP THE POWERPOINT HERE. I HAVE IT IN OH, OKAY. DOWNLOADING IT IS ATTACHED EXHIBIT B AS WELL. IF ONLINE IF OUR COMPUTERS BEING MAD. I CAN'T CLICK ON THIS THIS SHOULD BE CLICKABLE [LAUGHTER] I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S APPLICABLE. I DON'T WANT TO CLICK ON A THOUSAND THINGS. I'VE ALREADY OVERLOADED IT WHY IS IT SO THIS IS A TOPIC THAT THE CITY COUNCIL HAS BEEN WORKING ON AND HAS BEEN REVIEWING SINCE 2023. IT WAS DIRECTED BY THE COUNCIL TO DO SOME WORK SESSION TO GET AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS SPECIFIC CODE SECTION, WHICH IS OUR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. THIS CODE, AS YOU GUYS ARE VERY FAMILIAR WITH, IT, IS A CODE THAT WE SEE LOTS OF VARIANCES FOR THAT COME THROUGH WITH THE CITY ON DIFFERENT PROJECTS. IT'S PROBABLY OUR NUMBER ONE VARIANCE. THANK YOU. LET ME SEE HERE. LOOK AT THAT I THINK WE'VE HAD SEVEN WORK SESSIONS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, ROUGHLY WITH THE COUNCIL. AND THE COUNCIL HAS SINCE CHANGED OVER AND BEEN, HAS LOOKED AT THIS A FEW DIFFERENT TIMES. THEY LAST SAW THIS LAST MONTH AND DETERMINED THAT THEY KIND OF HAVE TWO GOALS FOR THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, WHICH IS TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS AND TO PREVENT LAKE CREEP. FOR, FOR BUILDINGS. THAT BEING SAID, THEY DID AGREE AND IDENTIFY THAT THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF CHALLENGES WITH THIS CODE AND HOW IT'S APPLIED AND HOW IT'S ADMINISTERED AND HOW PEOPLE IN THE AMOUNT OF VARIANCES WE HAVE WITH IT. SO THEY DIRECTED A STAFF TO BRING THIS TO PLANNING COMMISSION TO KIND OF WORK THROUGH THIS PIECE OF CODE TO SEE IF THERE'S OTHER IDEAS TO ACHIEVE THAT SAME KIND OF GOALS OF PROTECTING LAKEVIEW'S PROTECTING LAKE CREEP, BUT MAYBE WITH A DIFFERENT TOOL OR A DIFFERENT AVENUE TO DO THAT BESIDES KIND OF HOW WE'RE CURRENTLY ADMINISTERING THIS. SO A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND, THIS IS THE CITY CODE THAT THAT DICTATES AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. SO I'M GOING TO READ IT BECAUSE IT'S A LITTLE, IT'S A DOOZY HERE. SO IT'S NO PRINCIPAL OR ACCESSORY BUILDINGS SHALL BE LOCATED CLOSER TO THE ORDINARY HIGH-WATER LEVEL OR OHWL ON A LAKESHORE [00:45:06] LOT. THEN THE AVERAGE DISTANCE OF THE SHORELINE OF THE EXISTING PRINCIPAL BUILDINGS ON ADJACENT LOTS. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PATIOS OR OTHER ACCESSORY STRUCTURES. LESS THAN 42IN ABOVE GRADE AND OR STAIRWAYS, LIFTS, LANDINGS, LOCKBOXES, FLAGPOLES AND PUMP HOUSES. FURTHER, THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK SHALL APPLY ONLY TO CLASSIFIED LAKES AND SHALL NOT APPLY TO TRIBUTARIES. THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK LINE SHALL BE A STRAIGHT LINE, CONNECTING THE MOST LAKEWARD PROTRUSIONS OF THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING ON IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT LAKESHORE LOTS SINCE THAT WAS ADOPTED. SOME EXCEPTIONS WERE CREATED TO THE RULE, WHICH IS. A. IN SITUATIONS WHERE IMPROVEMENTS ARE PROPOSED IS PROPOSED ON A LOT ADJACENT TO A VACANT LOT OR RIGHT OF WAY. THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK SHALL BE EQUIVALENT TO THE SETBACK OF THE MOST LAKEWARD PROTRUSION OF THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING ON THE IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT IMPROVED LAKESHORE LOT. AND B. IN SITUATIONS WHERE THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK LINE BISECTS A PRINCIPAL BUILDING LOCATED ON EITHER ADJACENT LOT. THE NEXT MORE MOST ADJACENT LAKESIDE POINT OF THE BISECTED PRINCIPAL BUILDING SHALL BE USED FOR DETERMINING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IF THE LINE CONTINUES TO BISECT THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING. THE NEXT MOST LAKESIDE POINT IS TO BE USED UNTIL THE SETBACK LINE DOES NOT BISECT THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING ON THE ADJACENT LOT. THIS CODE CAN BE VERY CHALLENGING FOR RESIDENTS, SURVEYORS ELECTED OFFICIALS, STAFF TO APPLY [LAUGHTER] WHEN WE'RE WORKING WITH WACKY SHORELINES AND EVER CHANGING BUILDINGS. SO A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY ON THIS. YEAH. SORRY, LAURA. IS IT POSSIBLE? I WOULD LOVE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND B. YEP, I NEED PICTURES. [LAUGHTER] YEAH. OKAY, SO A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY ON THIS. THIS CODE WAS ADOPTED WHEN WE ADOPTED OUR SHORELAND REGULATIONS, WHICH IS WHAT PUTS OUR LAKESHORE SETBACK, WHICH IS KIND OF OUR DNR MODEL ORDINANCE THAT WE ADOPTED IN 1992. THIS WAS AN ELEMENT OF A LARGER ORDINANCE THAT WE ADOPTED IN 2004. AN EXCEPTION WAS ADDED TO ALLOW ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL BY STAFF WHEN WITH WRITTEN CONSENT. THEN IN 2013 THROUGH WE ADDED THAT FLAGPOLES, PUMP HOUSES AND LIFTS, LANDING STAIRWAYS WERE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT DEFINITION BECAUSE THOSE ARE PERMITTED IN THE LAKE YARD. THOSE ARE PERMITTED IMPROVEMENTS TO GET DOWN TO LAKES. IN 2015 THERE WAS KIND OF A BIGGER OVERHAUL THAT HAPPENED. WE REMOVED THE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL PROCESS. IT'S NOT REALLY BEST PRACTICE TO HAVE A STAFF ADMIT, EXCEPTIONS, BASICALLY GRANTING ADMINISTRATIVE VARIANCES TO CITY CODE. BUT THEN FOR THE WE ADDED THE EXCEPTION TO ALLOW IN THE DEFINITION STRUCTURES UNDER 42IN IN HEIGHT ARE ALLOWED TO BE LAKEWARD OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. PREVIOUSLY TO 2015 THEY WERE NOT. SO WE ALLOWED. WE KIND OF OPENED THE DOOR FOR PATIOS, POOLS, LOW LEVEL DECKS, THINGS LIKE THAT TO BE LAKEWARD OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. WE ALSO THEN ADDED THE EXCEPTION ABOUT HOW WE MEASURE IT WHEN THE WHEN YOU'RE ADJACENT TO A RIGHT OF WAY OR A VACANT LOT. SO EXCEPTION A. IN 2018 WE WERE REDEFINING DEFINITIONS OF MASSING A LOT. SO WE CHANGED BUILDINGS AND STRUCTURE DEFINITION IN THAT, IN THAT CODE, BECAUSE BEFORE WE DIDN'T ALLOW ANY STRUCTURES LOCATED OF AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, WHICH PER OUR DEFINITIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN PATIOS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. IT WAS IN CONFLICT. SO WE SAID, OKAY, WELL REALLY IT'S NO BUILDINGS ARE LOCATED LAKEWARD OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. IN 2019, WE ADDED AN EXCEPTION FOR SITUATIONS OF WHERE IT BISECTS YOUR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE THAT YOU CAN THEN ADJUST THE LINE. THAT'S EXCEPTION B WAS A 2019 ADDITION. AND THEN IN 23, WE'RE DOING A RECODIFICATION PROJECT FOR THE ENTIRE CITY CODE, AND WE FOUND THAT THERE WAS A GAP IN HERE ABOUT HOW WE APPLY IT WHEN THE HOUSE. WHAT DO WE DO WHEN SOME PARCELS HAVE A LAKEVIEW OVER A PARCEL THAT ISN'T A LAKESHORE LOT? SO WE CLARIFIED THE DEFINITION THAT THIS ONLY APPLIES TO PROPERTIES AND ADJACENT PROPERTIES THAT HAVE THAT ARE LAKE. THAT ARE ON THE LAKE. SO SINCE 92, WHEN IT WAS FIRST IMPLEMENTED TO 2023, SO ABOUT 20 YEARS THERE, WE'VE WE'VE AMENDED IT QUITE A BIT. WE'VE TOUCHED THIS CODE A LOT [LAUGHTER] AND TRYING TO WORK THROUGH IT. SOME OTHER REGULATING SOME OTHER REGULATIONS IN OUR CITY CODE FOR LAKESHORE PROPERTIES THAT IMPACT MASSING AND [00:50:09] LIMITATIONS ON PROPERTIES. WE HAVE LAKE SETBACKS WHICH IS MEASURED. A MEASURED SETBACK FOR, FOR LAKE MINNETONKA, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S THE 929.4' WHICH IS THE ORDINARY HIGH-WATER LEVEL, WHICH I'M SURE YOU GUYS HEAR A LOT. WHICH IS A FLAT MEASUREMENT FROM THE EDGE OF THE LAKE, 75FT BACK FOR LAKE MINNETONKA. THAT IS OUR LAKE SETBACK IMPLEMENTED. WE ADOPTED THROUGH OUR SHORELAND OVERLAY ORDINANCE. FOR OTHER CLASSIFICATIONS OF LAKE, THERE'S VARYING SETBACKS. SO WE HAVE A LAKE CLASSEN IT'S 150FT FOR ON LONG LAKE IT'S 75 OR 100 DEPENDING IF YOU'RE SEPTIC OR SEWER. BUT THOSE ARE JUST FLAT MEASUREMENTS FROM WHEREVER THE IDENTIFIED ORDINARY HIGH WATER LEVEL ELEVATION IS OF THOSE LAKES, VERY CLEAR MEASUREMENT. WE ALSO HAVE HARDCOVER, WHICH IS A LIMITING ELEMENT FOR CONSTRUCTION ON A PROPERTY. HARDCOVER ALLOW, ALLOWANCE IS. SORRY, HARDCOVER ALLOWANCE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY IS BASED ON THE ASSIGNED TIER FOR THE STORM WATER OVERLAY DISTRICT. AND THEN MAJORITY OF THE PROPERTIES ABUTTING THE LAKE AND PROTECTING TRIBUTARIES ARE CLASSIFIED AS TIER 1. AND THEN HARDCOVER MEANS BASICALLY ANY IMPROVED AREA, BUT THAT IS A REGULATION THAT REALLY CONSTRICTS HOW PEOPLE CAN BUILD. THEY KIND OF OFTEN HAVE ARE TOYING, BALANCING. HOW MUCH HOUSE CAN I HAVE, HOW MUCH DRIVEWAY DO I HAVE, HOW MUCH PATIO THAT CAN I HAVE? WHERE DO I PLACE THIS HOUSE? THAT'S OFTEN A GUIDING REGULATION ON, ON DESIGNING A PARCEL. AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK AS A SITE LINE. SO THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS A SITE LINE SETBACK INTENDED TO PROTECT VIEWS OF THE LAKE, INCLUDING VIEWS ACROSS NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES, ACCESSORY STRUCTURES, POOLS, PATIOS, RETAINING WALLS ARE PERMITTED IF THEY'RE UNDER 42IN IN HEIGHT. THE SETBACK IS DETERMINED BASED ON WHERE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSES ARE. AND THEN, BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO LAKE SETBACKS THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE AND THE LAKE WE TAKE, THE MORE RESTRICTIVE OF THE TWO SETBACK IS WHAT DETERMINES YOUR BUILDING ENVELOPE. SO SOME CHALLENGES WITH THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. THE ORDINANCE LANGUAGE IS CUMBERSOME FOR RESIDENTS TO APPLY. IT'S A CHALLENGING PIECE OF REGULATION THAT WE HAVE. OVER TIME IT CAN SUBSTANTIALLY LIMIT THE BUILDABLE ENVELOPE BECAUSE IF MY NEIGHBOR REBUILDS AND GETS PUSHED BACK, THAT PUSHES MY LINE BACK. SO WHEN I REBUILD, I GET PUSHED BACK. AND WHILE THAT WE WANT TO PREVENT LAKE CREEP, IT ALSO VERY MUCH CAN ELIMINATE BUILDING ENVELOPES ON PROPERTIES DEPENDING ON LAKESHORE AND CONFIGURATIONS OF LOTS. SO THAT IS A CHALLENGE AS IT'S HISTORICALLY OVER TIME. THE SETBACK CHANGES WHENEVER AN ABUTTING PARCEL REDEVELOPS OR CHANGES, MEANING THAT IT'S, IT'S NOT, IT'S A EVER MOVING. EVERY TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO DO A PROJECT WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE A SURVEY ON FILE FROM FIVE YEARS AGO THAT'S ACCURATE ANY LONGER. BECAUSE IF THE NEIGHBOR DID A DECK, IF THE NEIGHBOR DID A HOME ADDITION, IF THE NEIGHBOR BUILT SOMETHING NEW THAT CHANGES ON EITHER SIDE, THAT CHANGES WHERE THAT LINE CAN BE INTERPRETED. SO EVERY TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO COME THROUGH, WE'RE ASKING THEM TO UPDATE THEIR INFORMATION. AND PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS CONFUSED WHERE THE LINE IS. OH, I THINK I KNOW WHERE IT IS. BUT THEN MY NEIGHBOR REBUILT AND NOW I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE MY NEW LINE IS IF I WANT TO DO MY DECK NOW. COMMON ERROR, WHICH LEADS TO MULTIPLE SUBMITTALS, MULTIPLE REVIEWS, MULTIPLE VARIANCES. IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE ALWAYS KIND OF EDITING AND WORKING ON WITH, WITH PERMITTING PROCESS. AND THEN THE SHORELINE INCONSISTENCIES MAKE THE SETBACK HARD TO APPLY. SO THIS IS, MIGHT BE REALLY GOOD FOR A STRAIGHT SHORELINE, WHICH IS NOT THE COMMON TYPE OF SHORELINE ON LAKES [LAUGHTER]. THEY MEANDER THEY PENINSULAS AND INLETS AND BAYS. SO AS THE SHORELINE CURVES, IT DOES CREATE NON-CONFORMITIES THROUGHOUT THE CITY. SO I GUESS LET ME JUST TALK THROUGH THIS IMAGE A LITTLE BIT. SO THE PROPERTY I HAVE AN UNIMPROVED RIGHT OF WAY HIGHLIGHTED AT THE TOP OF THE PICTURE HERE. SO THAT PROPERTY IMMEDIATELY TO THE SOUTH, TO THE RIGHT. YEAH SO THIS PROPERTY, IF THEY WANT TO BUILD THEIR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, IS ONLY DETERMINED BY THAT PROPERTY WHERE THE MOUSE IS. IT'S JUST A FLAT, MEASURED SETBACK. THEY DO NOT HAVE A LINE NECESSARILY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH. THEY ARE EXCEPTION A IN OUR DEFINITION. THEY ABUT AN UNIMPROVED RIGHT OF WAY. SO THEY WHEREVER THEIR NEIGHBOR DECIDES TO BUILD, THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE CONSTRICTED TO BUILD. THE WHERE THE WORDS ARE 75 AND ALS THERE. THAT IS KIND OF THE NORMAL SITUATION. THAT'S THE IDEAL SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE A 75 FOOT SETBACK. [00:55:01] THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS THE MORE RESTRICTIVE. THEY HAVE NEIGHBORS, KIND OF EVERYONE'S IN LINE, NICE AND UNIFORM. THERE'S ROOM TO PUT A PATIO, A SMALL POOL, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THAT'S KIND OF IDEALLY HOW WE'D LIKE TO IMAGINE THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK WOULD BE APPLIED. DOWN AT THE SOUTH OF THE PICTURE, YOU CAN SEE THE ONE HOUSE THAT'S 200FT BACK. SO THAT CREATES A CHALLENGE FOR THE PROPERTY DIRECTLY NORTH OF THE YOU KNOW, BECAUSE NOW THEIR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS HOW THE MOUSE IS BEING DIRECTED, WHICH IS RELATIVELY EXTREME COMPARED TO HOW THE OTHER NEIGHBORS GET TO USE THEIR BUILDING, BUILDING ENVELOPE. SO THAT NEIGHBOR WILL BE COMING IN FOR VARIANCES AT SOME POINT NO MATTER WHAT, MOST LIKELY BECAUSE THEIR ONE NEIGHBOR HASN'T REDEVELOPED AND IS 200FT BACK COMPARED TO ALL THE OTHER NEIGHBORS, WHICH ARE ROUGHLY MAYBE 100FT BACK. SO EVEN IN THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A STRAIGHT SHORELINE AND EVERYTHING IS UNIFORM AND EASY, IT ALL IS DEPENDENT ON REALLY WHERE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSES ARE. MAKING IT ALWAYS EVOLVING. EXAMPLES HERE. SO I HAVE A BAY. I SHOULD NOTE THAT MOST OF THESE PICTURES ARE ALL VARIANCES THAT YOU GUYS SAW IN THE LAST 2 OR 3 YEARS. SO THESE YOU SHOULD HAVE FEELINGS OF BEING LIKE, I KNOW THIS, I REMEMBER THIS LOT. SO I KIND OF HIGHLIGHTED A 75 FOOT SETBACK IN RED THERE UNDER THE BAY EXAMPLE. AND THEN A, THEIR LINE IS DRAWN BETWEEN NUMBER ONE AND NUMBER TWO, WHICH BISECTS THE HOUSE BECAUSE THE NEIGHBOR JUST WEST OF NEIGHBOR TWO, THE VACANT LOT LOOKING THING. IF THERE WAS A HOUSE ON THAT, IT WOULDN'T COUNT BECAUSE IT IS NOT A LAKESHORE LOT. SO EVEN THOUGH IT FEELS LIKE, OH, THAT'S MY NEXT NEIGHBOR, THAT'S MY SHARED PROPERTY LINE, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WOULD USE BECAUSE NEIGHBOR TWO HAS A SHARED PROPERTY ON WITH IT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD USE. THIS IS A SIMILAR SITUATION TO 860 BROWN, WHICH WE TALKED QUITE A BIT ABOUT, I THINK LIKE TWO MEETINGS AGO WHERE WE SKIPPED OVER A PROPERTY TO CREATE THE LINE FOR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW THAT WORKS, BECAUSE THAT ISN'T THAT WASN'T A LAKESHORE LOT. AND THAT ONE, THAT VACANT LOT ISN'T A LAKESHORE LOT. SO WE USE THE LAKESHORE LOT THAT TOUCHES AT THE LAKE. YEAH. SO I'M TRYING TO THINK ABOUT HOW I CAN APPLY A EXHIBIT. EXHIBIT EXHIBIT B HERE. ANOTHER CHALLENGE. HERE. THE SECOND PICTURE IS A LARGE NEIGHBOR SETBACK. WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT, BUT IN THE SECOND IMAGE THERE YOU CAN SEE THE NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH IS ABOUT 500FT BACK FROM THE LAKE. THIS IS A RELATIVELY LARGE ZONING DISTRICT OVER HERE. I THINK I'M IN A TWO ACRE DISTRICT. THIS NEIGHBOR TO THE SOUTH IS STILL 186FT FROM THE LAKE, SO WELL BEYOND THE 75 FOOT LAKE. THESE AREN'T NECESSARILY PROPERTIES THAT ARE ENCROACHING AND GETTING SUPER CLOSE, BUT THE. THE PROPERTY IN THE MIDDLE IS COMPLETELY NON-CONFORMING FOR A TWO ACRE LOT AND HAS A LIMITED BUILDING ENVELOPE. THE PROPERTY IN THAT EXAMPLE ON OUR WEST. IT'S SET BACK BECAUSE OF WETLAND THOUGH NOT. SURE. CORRECT. YEAH. YEP. AND WE HAVE THAT ALL THE TIME. WHERE THERE'S SOME WETLAND, THERE'S SOME INLET. THERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S PUSHING THAT HOUSE TO BE FARTHER AWAY FROM THE LAKE, WHETHER IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE CHOOSING TO OR BECAUSE THERE'S NATURAL FEATURE, WHEN THE HOUSE IS COMPLETELY SET THAT FAR BACK, IT CREATES AN EXTREME CONDITION ON THE PROPERTY, WHICH IS ELIMINATING THAT BUILDING ENVELOPE FOR THE SUBJECT PROPERTY. WHICH IS THE A CHALLENGE THAT IS OUTSIDE THE. OUTSIDE, THE POWER OF THE SUBJECT PROPERTY TO DEAL WITH. BUT PER OUR CODE, BECAUSE OF THE RULES THAT WE HAVE HAS NOW WILL REQUIRE THEM TO COME THROUGH FOR VARIANCES TO DO ANYTHING, ANY TYPE OF PROJECT ON THAT HOUSE, WHETHER A DECK, A HOME ADDITION, EVEN IF IT'S ON THE ENTRANCE SIDE OF THEIR HOME BECAUSE OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK RULE, I WILL NOTE. SO AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK WE USE. IT'S MEASURED BY THE CLOSEST POINT OF THE SUBJECT OF THE NEIGHBOR'S PROPERTY. SO FOR EXAMPLE. I WANT I WANT TO SHOW EXHIBIT THE EXCEPTION B. SO FOR THE SECOND PICTURE THE LOT THAT'S 186FT BACK, THE SOUTHERN LOT, IF THEIR CLOSEST POINT WAS FARTHER SOUTH ON THE HOUSE FOR EXAMPLE. YEAH. THAT LINE WOULD THEN BISECT THAT HOUSE, THE LINE WOULD BISECT IT. AND SO EXHIBIT EXCEPTION B OF THE DEFINITION SAYS IF THE LINE IS GOING TO BISECT THE HOUSE, THAT WHERE THE LINE STARTS FROM, YOU'RE GOING TO MOVE THE LINE AROUND THE HOUSE UNTIL IT DOESN'T BISECT THE HOUSE ANY LONGER, [01:00:07] BECAUSE THE WHOLE POINT IS TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS. AND HOW CAN YOU PROTECT LAKE VIEWS FROM A LINE THAT'S BISECTING AN EXISTING STRUCTURE THAT'S NOT THAT'S ALREADY LIKE AN INTRUSION IN THE SIGHTLINE. SO IT'S MOVING THE LINE AROUND THE HOUSE UNTIL THE LINE NO LONGER IS BISECTED BY THE BY THE EXISTING HOUSE STRUCTURE. IT'S A WACKY ONE. WE DO SEE IT. THAT EXCEPTION DOESN'T GET APPLIED VERY OFTEN. A LITTLE BIT, BUT WE HAD A FEW CHALLENGES WITH IT A FEW YEARS AGO. A LOT OF THE TIMES IT'S ON A CURVE. IT'S ON CURVED PENINSULA TYPE THINGS. OH NO, I CAN DO THAT. LOOK AT ME. OKAY. SO FLAG LOTS. WE HAVE THESE ALL OVER. I THINK THIS ONE'S I THINK ARE. NO LOMA LINDA? NO, THIS IS ETHEL SO THE SUBJECT PROPERTY IS WITH THE 75 FOOT LAKESHORE SETBACK. YOU CAN SEE THIS HOUSE WAS REBUILT. THIS WAS A THIS IS EXISTING CONDITIONS, BUT THIS WAS A VARIANCE THAT YOU GUYS SAW A FEW YEARS AGO. THEY DO NOT HAVE A CONFORMING BUILDING ENVELOPE. THEY DO NOT HAVE A CONFORMING BUILDING ENVELOPE BECAUSE NEIGHBOR TWO, NEIGHBOR TWO'S ORIENTATION AND THEN NEIGHBOR'S ONE ORIENTATION BEING KIND OF THE OPPOSITE OF THE FLAG LOT THAT THE SUBJECT PROPERTY IS ELIMINATES A CONFORMING ENVELOPE TO PLACE A HOUSE ON THIS PROPERTY. SO IT'S NOT ALWAYS BECAUSE OF LAKESHORE. IT ALSO IS DEPENDENT ON HOW LOTS ARE ORIENTED, HOW HOUSES ARE CONSTRUCTED, AND KIND OF EVER EVOLVING. AT THE END OF FOX, AGAIN, THIS IS A LARGE LOT. THIS IS ONE OF OUR LARGEST LOTS OF KIND OF AREAS. THIS IS AN EIGHT ACRE LOT. YOU'D THINK WE COULD HAVE A CONFORMING BUILDING ENVELOPE ON AN EIGHT ACRE PROPERTY. BUT THIS ONE, BECAUSE OF THE ORIENTATION OF THE SHORELINE BEING ESSENTIALLY A CORNER, A PENINSULA, IT HAS ELIMINATED A BUILDING ENVELOPE FOR AN EIGHT ACRE PARCEL. BASED ON OUR DEFINITION OF AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. THIS ONE WAS PROBABLY A BETTER ONE TO SHOW FOR EXHIBIT B OR ACCEPT I CAN'T AN EXHIBIT. EXCEPTION B, BECAUSE NEIGHBOR TWO TO THE NORTH, THE CLOSEST POINT IS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THAT HOUSE. AND YOU CAN SEE THE LINE BISECTS THE HOUSE. SO TECHNICALLY WE'LL MOVE THAT LINE AROUND THE HOUSE UNTIL IT'S NO LONGER BISECTING THE HOUSE. FOR. FURTHER WEST AROUND, AROUND UNTIL THE LINE NO LONGER IS BEING BISECTED BY THE HOUSE. YEAH. SO SOME OUTCOMES THAT WE'VE SEEN SINCE HAVING AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK FURTHER LIMITS THE MASSING AWAY FROM THE SHORELINE. IT DOES CREATE A STRICTER SETBACK AND A HIGHER LEVEL OF PROTECTION FROM LAKESHORE AND WELL THE, THE WRITTEN INTENT IS TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS. THE RESULT OF THE ORDINANCE KIND OF A SECONDARY EFFECT IS IT DOES CREATE MASSING FARTHER AWAY FROM THE LAKE, WHICH IS, I THINK, SOMETHING THAT IS A BENEFIT THAT WE HEAR FROM THE COUNCIL AND COMMISSION THAT WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO SEE. IT STRIVES TO CREATE UNIFORMITY BETWEEN NEIGHBORS TRYING TO SET EVERYONE KIND OF AT AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD. IT IS UNIQUE TO EVERY PARCEL. EVERY PARCEL NEEDS AN ANALYSIS AND NEEDS KIND OF SOME APPLIED THOUGHT TO CREATE AND UNDERSTAND YOUR BUILDING ENVELOPE. IT PROTECTS NEIGHBORING VIEWS FROM THE LAKE, AND IT IS A HIGHER STANDARD ABOVE AND BEYOND THE DNR MODEL ORDINANCE. SO WE HAVE, WE ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE KIND OF MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THE DNR MODEL ORDINANCE THAT THEY PUT OUT THAT WE ARE REQUIRED TO ADOPT BY STATE STATUTE. THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT. IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE. IT'S SOMETHING WE ARE CHOOSING TO HAVE. I WILL SAY IN THIS EXAMPLE, THIS IS CRYSTAL BAY ROAD. THIS IS ONE OF THE AREAS WHERE YOU GUYS OFTEN SEE WHERE THE 75 IS, WAY BACK INTO WHERE THE HOUSES ARE. AND THIS AREA REALLY IS DICTATED BY THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, WHERE THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS MORE LAKEWARD THAN THE, THAN THE 75 FOOT SETBACK. SO OFTENTIMES WHEN THESE RECONSTRUCTION PROJECTS COME IN AND IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, WE'RE SAYING, OKAY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LAKE. LAKESHORE VARIANCE. YOU'RE IN THE 75 OR YOU'RE DEALING WITH A NON-CONFORMITY IN THE 75 ALREADY. BUT WHERE WE'RE HOLDING THE LINE IS WE DON'T WANT YOU ANYWHERE. [01:05:04] LAKEWARD OF THE AVERAGE. LAKESHORE SETBACK TO BE UNIFORM WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS. AND I WILL NOTE ALL THESE HOUSES ARE USUALLY WITHIN TEN FEET OF THEIR REAR SETBACK. SO THE WHOLE THING, THEY HAVE LIKE TWO SQUARE FEET FOR A BUILDING ENVELOPE. IT'S SUPER TIGHT DOWN THERE. BUT JUST TO SHOW THAT AVERAGE SETBACK DOES WE DO USE THAT WHEN IT WHEN IT IS LESS RESTRICTIVE THAN THE 75. OFTEN AS A GUIDING MEASURE FOR DETERMINING IF SOMETHING'S REASONABLE. OH, MY TRICK IS GONE OH THANK YOU. I DIDN'T MEAN TO, TRY THAT OKAY. SORRY. YEAH LOOK AT THAT. ALL RIGHT. SO IN 2023 OF THE VARIANCES THAT WE HAD COME THROUGH, 43% OF THEM INCLUDED A REQUEST FOR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN 2024. OF ALL THE VARIANCES THAT WERE SEEN, 52% OF THEM HAD AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK VARIANCE REQUEST IN 2025. THERE WAS 34% OF THE VARIANCES CAME THROUGH HAD AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. SO THIS IS ONE OF OUR MOST REQUESTED VARIANCES. IF IT IS THE MOST REQUESTED VARIANCE ELEMENT THAT WE SEE YEAR AFTER YEAR. I WILL NOTE THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE VARIANCES AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK VARIANCES THAT ARE BROUGHT FORWARD ARE APPROVED BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUENESS OF HOW THEY GET APPLIED AND THE LAKESHORE AND THE NEIGHBORS AND ORIENTATION. SO IT IS ONE THAT WE ALMOST ALWAYS ARE APPROVING. PROBABLY 90% TO 95% OF THEM. THERE'S USUALLY 1 OR 2 A YEAR THAT GET THROUGH ON RECOMMENDED DENIAL. BUT MAJORITY, THEY ARE BEING RECOMMENDED APPROVAL. I WILL NOTE IN THIS IMAGE HERE, YOU CAN SEE JUST ON IN ONE SINGLE NEIGHBORHOOD, BECAUSE OF THE FLUCTUATION OF THE BAY AND THE ORIENTATION OF THE HOUSES AND THE INLETS. YOU CAN JUST SEE THE LINE IS SO UNIQUE FOR EVERY SINGLE NEIGHBOR, THE, THE HOUSE, YOU KNOW, THE YELLOW LOT THERE IS, YOU CAN SEE THE 75 PULLS OUT KIND OF WHERE THE POOL IS. AND THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS DETERMINED BY BETWEEN NEIGHBORS ONE AND THREE. NEIGHBOR FOUR THERE THE HOUSE IS WAY PULLED BACK, BUT THEY'RE REALLY CONFINED BY THE 75 FOOT SETBACK BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN INLET THAT COMES INTO THEIR PROPERTY. AND NEIGHBOR SIX OVER THERE, THE PURPLE ONE HIGHLIGHTED DOESN'T REALLY HAVE A CONFORMING BUILDING ENVELOPE AGAIN BECAUSE OF THAT PENINSULA. SO EVEN TO SAY, TRYING TO MAKE UNIFORMITY WITH YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD. AND DEPENDING ON YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, THERE'S REALLY THIS LINE IS CAN BE ALL OVER THE PLACE STILL. ARE THERE OTHER DEFINITIONS OF AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACKS IN OTHER CITIES THAT ARE MORE ADAPTIVE TO SHORELINES THAT ARE STRUCTURED LIKE THIS? HAVE WE SEEN THIS? YEAH. SO OTHER CITIES HAVE DONE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN A FEW DIFFERENT WAYS. WE DID DO THAT RESEARCH AND I CAN BRING IT FORWARD IN ANOTHER DISCUSSION IF WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO HAVE DISCUSSIONS AND LOOK INTO THIS. WE DID A LOOK AT, I THINK LIKE EIGHT LAKESHORE CITIES ON LAKE MINNETONKA. I THINK 4 OR 5 OF THEM DIDN'T HAVE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. THEY ONLY USED THE LAKE SETBACK. AND THAT IS IT. I THINK ONE CITY MOUND, I THINK. ONE CITY, THEY HAVE A LAKE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK LIKE WE DO. AND THEY HAVE THE LAKESHORE, BUT THEY USE THE LESS RESTRICTIVE. ONE CITY THEY IS SIMILAR TO US AND THEY USE THE MORE RESTRICTIVE. ONE CITY DOES A FLAT MEASUREMENT. THEY CALCULATE THE AVERAGE INSTEAD OF JUST WHERE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSES ARE. THEY SAY, OKAY, MEASURE WHERE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S CLOSEST POINT IS. MY ONE NEIGHBOR IS 80FT AND MY OTHER NEIGHBOR'S 90FT BACK. MY AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK NOW IS 85FT. I'M TAKING THE AVERAGE OF MY NEIGHBORS, BUT IT'S A MEASURED CALCULATION INSTEAD OF A LINE. SO THEN THAT 85FT WILL FOLLOW THE SHORELINE. IT'S MEASURED, AND IT'S FROM THE SHORELINE. FLAT MEASUREMENT BASED ON YOUR NEIGHBORS. DO ANY CITIES THAT ARE SIMILAR TO OURS ON THE LAKE OR ON OTHER LAKES INSTEAD OF HAVING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, SIMPLY REQUIRE APPROVAL BY THE NEIGHBORS OR SUPPORT OF THE NEIGHBORS. AND IF THE GOAL IS SIGHT LINE. NO, NOT THAT NO, BECAUSE THAT REALLY IS FALLING UNDER THAT LIKE ADMINISTRATIVE VARIANCE TYPE THING. WHERE WE, WHERE WE'RE SAYING THIS IS THE RULE, THIS IS, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE, IF YOU DON'T MEET IT, GO GET YOUR, HAVE YOUR NEIGHBOR SAY IT'S OKAY, AND THEN WE CAN APPROVE IT. AND THAT KIND OF FALLS UNDER THAT ADMINISTRATIVE. [01:10:06] FOR MEETING THOSE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY CRITERIA. RIGHT. SO I, I THINK WHEN YOU REWRITE CODE, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO KIND OF SET THE PARAMETERS AND SET THE EXCEPTIONS. SO THAT'S KIND OF THE MOST POWERFUL TIME A PLANNING COMMISSION AND COUNCIL HAVE IN SETTING WHAT THE CODE IS AND HOW TO APPLY IT. SO IF WE'RE SEEING THAT THERE'S CHALLENGES WITH THE AMOUNT OF VARIANCES WE'RE GETTING, HOW IT'S APPLIED, HOW PEOPLE ARE USING IT, THE BEST OPTION IS TO LOOK AT CREATIVE WAYS TO MAYBE RESHAPE THIS TOOL TO MAYBE IF THE INTENT IS TO DO SIGHT LINE PROTECTION. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. AND WHAT ARE SOME WAYS WE CAN DO THAT? IF I THINK THE BEST PLACE TO START IS PROBABLY TALK ABOUT THE GOALS AND THE INTENT THAT ARE IMPORTANT THAT YOU VALUE AS A COMMISSION, AND THEN STAFF CAN COME BACK WITH SOME OPTIONS, OR WE CAN GO INTO A WORK SESSION TO BRAINSTORM OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT WE DID POSE KIND OF THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS TO YOU TONIGHT ON IS CHANGE TO THE ORDINANCE NECESSARY? DOES THE CURRENT ORDINANCE AS APPLIED MEET THE COUNCIL'S IDENTIFIED PRIORITIES? THE PLANNING COMMISSION'S IDENTIFIED PRIORITIES. IF PROTECTING LAKEVIEW IS PRIORITY, SHOULD WE CONSIDER LANDSCAPING INTO THAT? BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IN THIS PICTURE, WE DON'T REGULATE LANDSCAPING. PEOPLE CAN JUST PLANT HEDGES. WELL, WE. WILL WE CARE ABOUT WHERE YOUR BUILDING AND YOUR DECK IS? PEOPLE CAN PLANT HEDGES AND LANDSCAPING ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE LAKESHORE. AND THERE'S A, THERE'S KIND OF THEN A BALANCE THERE. IF WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE PLANTINGS, WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE PROTECTION OF LAKESHORE. WE DON'T WANT DISTURBED SHORELINES AS NATURAL AS POSSIBLE. BUT IF WE'RE TRYING TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS ARE. HOW FAR WHERE DO WE DRAW THAT LINE? NOPE AND THEN, IS THE ALS REGULATION THE BEST TOOL TO MEET THE GOALS THAT YOU GUYS SEE? SO I DID POSE SOME QUESTIONS THERE AND I DO HAVE MORE INFORMATION. I'M HAPPY TO SHARE WITH THAT, BUT I'LL PROBABLY STOP THERE. OF THE VARIANCES THAT INCLUDED AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. MY, MY GUESS WOULD BE, OR MY EXPERIENCE WOULD BE THAT MOST OF THOSE REQUIRED OTHER VARIANCES AS WELL. DO IN GENERAL, IS IT VERY OFTEN THAT THE ONLY VARIANCE THEY'RE REQUIRING IS AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK VARIANCE? YES SOME OF THEM ARE BUILT IN THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK AND THE LAKE SETBACK. BUT I WOULD SAY THERE'S OFTENTIMES JUST A STANDALONE, I THINK YOU GUYS JUST SAW 860 BROWN. YOU JUST SAW 3, 356 WEST LAKE, I THINK JUST AT YOUR LAST MEETING THAT WAS JUST AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. SO IT IS COMMON, COMMON REQUEST. SO ONE THING I JUST, I DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT ON BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT A LOT WITH THE VIEWS. PART OF WHAT I SAW IN HERE AND THE, THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS ALSO TO PREVENT LAKESHORE CREEP. RIGHT. THAT AND I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT LIKE, I THINK WE NEED TO HIGHLIGHT THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE WE TALK SIGHT LINE, SIGHT LINE, SIGHT LINE. AND WE FORGET THAT THIS IS ALSO ABOUT KEEPING HOUSES FROM GRADUALLY MOVING CLOSER AND CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE LAKE. THAT'S THE RESULT OF IT, BUT I THOUGHT ONE OF THE. THAT WAS WHAT. SO THE COUNCIL, WHEN THEY WORKED THROUGH. WHEN THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS, THEY KIND OF SAID THEIR GOAL IS TO PROTECT LAKESHORE VIEWS AND TO PREVENT LAKE CREEP. WHERE WE OFTEN HAVE A DISCONNECT IS IT'S WRITTEN WHEN IT WAS ADOPTED, THAT THE POINT OF THE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS. THAT'S WHY THE CODE WAS WRITTEN AND THE LINE IS DESCRIBED AND CREATED. THE WAY IT IS, IS TO PROTECT LAKE VIEWS, WHY IT BISECTS NEIGHBORS PROPERTIES BASED ON YOUR PROPERTY OR BASED ON THEIR HOUSES. THE LAKE CREEP IS SOMETHING IF THAT, THAT COULD BE ADDRESSED IN A MULTITUDE OF OTHER TOOLS JUST BY SAYING, WELL, MAYBE WE INCREASE THE LAKESHORE SETBACK INSTEAD OF 75. WHAT IF WE MAKE IT 100? WHAT IF WE MAKE IT A MORE UNIFORM WAY THAT'S NOT DETERMINED ON WHERE MY NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE IS, AND WE JUST ASK EVERYONE TO PULL FARTHER BACK OR SOMETHING SO. POTENTIALLY, YEAH. ALSO PROTECTS THE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN ITSELF. POTENTIALLY. SO LAKE CREEP IS AN OUTCOME. IT'S A RESULT OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. BUT IT WASN'T THE INTENDED REASON WHY WE ADOPTED THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN 92. THE WHY WE ADOPTED AVERAGE SETBACK WAS LAKE VIEWS, WHICH IS WHY, WHICH IS WHICH IS KIND OF THE RUB, RIGHT? BECAUSE WE USE IT AS A TOOL TO PREVENT LAKE CREEP, BUT THAT'S NOT. [01:15:06] I WAS GOING TO SAY IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NOW A PRIORITY OF THE COUNCIL, THOUGH SOMETHING THE COUNCIL WANTS TO. TRUE. YES. AND I JUST ONE OTHER POINT. TWO OTHERS ACTUALLY I APOLOGIZE. FIRST, I THINK THE NUMBER OF VARIANCES IN MY PERSPECTIVE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD THING. I THINK SEEING, EVEN THOUGH IT'S SUCH A LARGE PERCENTAGE, I THINK SEEING THEM HAVE TO COME AND GET VETTED OUT AND EVERYTHING IS ACTUALLY A POSITIVE ASPECT OF THE LAKESHORE SETBACK. IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE AREN'T JUST KIND OF GOING OUT THERE AND FINDING A NUMBER AND THEN GOING TO THE NUMBER. THEY'RE ACTUALLY HAVING TO GO THROUGH AND REALLY THINK ABOUT HOW THE HOUSE IS GETTING POSITIONED ON IT. HOW DO I JUSTIFY IT? HOW DO I DO THIS? SO AS MUCH AS I KNOW THAT'S A LOT OF YOUR WORK AND I APPRECIATE YOUR WORK GOING THROUGH AND DOING ALL THESE, I JUST WANT TO KIND OF PUT IT OUT THERE AND SAY, I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY A GOOD THING, NOT A BAD THING. YEAH. SO OFTENTIMES WHEN PEOPLE COME THROUGH FOR VARIANCES AND THEY'RE LIKE, I WANT TO BUILD THIS HOUSE. I WANT IT THREE STORIES, I WANT SIX DECKS. I WANT ALL THE THINGS. THE FIRST THING STAFF IS GOING TO SAY, AND LIKE YOU'RE NOTING IS, WELL, GIVE US YOUR BEST ATTEMPT TO MEET THE CITY CODE. WHAT IS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF ENCROACHMENT THAT IS REASONABLE ON THIS PROPERTY? HOW CAN WE PULL IT BACK? WE AS STAFF WORKED WORK A LOT WITH APPLICANTS WHEN THEY'RE COMING THROUGH VARIANCES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR THE MINIMUM NECESSARY TO MAKE IT USABLE AND MANAGEABLE. SO I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT. AN ELEMENT OF THE CODE. A PRIORITY OF THE CODE IS TO BE CLEAR AND CONCISE FOR APPLICABILITY. SO I THINK THERE IS A BALANCE THERE OF HOW CAN WE MAKE THE CODE MORE EASIER TO INTERPRET, EASIER TO APPLY. SO LESS VARIANCES. SO PEOPLE CAN JUST FIND THAT LINE MORE INTUITIVELY AND READ IT MORE SIMPLY. SO THEN THEY CAN IDENTIFY THEIR BUILDING ENVELOPE AND HAVE LESS ERRORS IN THE CREATION OF THEIR DESIGNS. AND THEN THE OTHER QUESTION IS THE NUMBER OF REQUESTS THAT DON'T TURN INTO APPLICATIONS HIGHER THAN THIS? OR DOES EVERYBODY WHO COMES TO YOU WITH A PROJECT THAT HAS THE LAKESHORE SETBACK TURN INTO A VARIANCE REQUEST? NO. WE DETER. WE DETER AS MANY APPLICATIONS. WE TRY AND GET AS MANY PEOPLE JUST TO CONFORM TO THE CITY CODE. WE IDEALLY WOULD NOT LIKE TO BRING FORWARD VARIANCE APPLICATIONS TO THE COMMISSION, AND WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO BUILD IN A WAY THAT JUST CONFORMS TO THE CITY CODE. AND SO OFTENTIMES WITH BEST PRACTICES, WHEN CITIES SEE THE SAME KIND OF VARIANCE COME THROUGH OVER AND OVER, THAT'S USUALLY KIND OF A LIGHT TO SAY, WELL, MAYBE THIS IS OUR CODE. IF NO ONE, IF PEOPLE ARE HAVING THIS MANY CHALLENGES, IF WE'RE GRANTING SO MANY VARIANCES, OFTENTIMES IT'S OUR CODE THAT'S CUMBERSOME OR CHALLENGING OR GOING AGAINST HOW, HOW IT CAN BE APPLIED ON IN THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT. AND SO MAYBE WE NEED TO LOOK AT HOW WE RESTRUCTURE OUR CODE TO PREVENT AND MAKE IT SO PEOPLE HAVE REASONABLE BUILDING ENVELOPES AND HAVE REASONABLE USE OF THE PROPERTY WITHOUT HAVING TO COME THROUGH A PUBLIC PROCESS. I WOULD SAY, THOUGH WITH AN AVERAGE SETBACK VARIANCE REQUEST BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE PROCESS THEM AND BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER THAT ARE ACTUALLY GRANTED AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE LITMUS THAT WE USE IS DOES YOUR NEIGHBOR OPPOSE THIS VARIANCE? MOST OF THOSE COME TO YOU. YEAH. SO IT'S, I THINK THERE'S A, THERE'S AN. AND OUR INTERPRETATION AND HOW WE SEE IT. I ALSO DO THINK THAT THE FACT THAT 95%, 99% OF THEM DO GET APPROVED AND BEING WE HAD A VARIANCE SIMILAR TO THIS. AND MELANIE WORKED WITH ME ON THIS AND I WAS LIKE, WELL, WE'RE JUST REPLACING A STRUCTURE THAT EXISTS. AND SHE GOES, THAT ENTIRE STRUCTURE IS OUT OF CODE ACCORDING TO THIS. AND SHE DREW THE LINE AND THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE THAT EXISTED. IT WAS A BARN. THEY HAD HORSES THERE. AND SO MANY ORONO PROPERTIES HAVE THESE STRUCTURES THAT WERE BUILT LONG BEFORE THIS CODE EXISTED, AND NONE OF IT WAS IN COMPLIANCE. AND SO I SAID, SO AM I SUPPOSED TO TEAR THIS ONE DOWN? AND WE COULDN'T. I MEAN, IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO MOVE IT TO THE FRONT OF OUR YARD. SO I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT EXISTS TODAY WAS MAYBE A 80 YEAR OLD HOME, AND IT'S NOT COMPLIANT WITH WHAT THE CODE IS NOW, 99% OF THESE ARE GETTING APPROVED. MAKES ME THINK THAT MAYBE THERE'S A WAY THAT WE COULD MAKE THIS EASIER FOR STAFF AND FOR THE, THE RESIDENTS TO MAKE SOME OF THE CHANGES WITHOUT, WITHOUT CAUSING PROBLEMS TO NEIGHBORS OR TO, YOU KNOW, THE LAKES. I AGREE, AND I FEEL LIKE THERE COULD BE A WAY TO MODIFY THE WAY THE ALS LINES ARE CONSTRUCTED, [01:20:04] SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER ABOUT JUST THE AVERAGE ACTUAL DISTANCE FROM THE SHORELINE OF THE HOUSES WITHIN A SPECIFIC AREA. IT SEEMS LIKE THE WAY THE LINES ARE BEING DRAWN RIGHT NOW IS NATURALLY PUTTING A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF CONFORMITY IN A WAY THAT WASN'T REALLY THE INTENT OF THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND SO, YEAH, I WONDER IF THERE'S JUST A MODIFICATION TO HOW THOSE LINES ARE BEING DRAWN. THAT WOULD GET US TO A PLACE WHERE IT IS A BIT MORE ADAPTIVE, EASIER TO EXPECT WHERE THAT LINE IS AS A RESIDENT, BUT ALSO FOR STAFF TO SEE THAT LINE MORE CONSISTENTLY THROUGHOUT THE CITY. I'D BE REALLY INTERESTED TO SEE EXAMPLES OF WHERE IT'S, HOW, WHAT THE LANGUAGE LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT'S FROM THE HOUSE TO THE CLOSEST POINT OF THE LAKE. AND INSTEAD OF BEING A HORIZONTAL LINE, IT'S A VERTICAL LINE AND AND APPLIED EVENLY IN THAT AREA. I'D BE VERY INTERESTED IN SEEING THAT LANGUAGE. I WOULD TOO. I THINK I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT I WOULD KIND OF CAVEAT ON TO ANY CHANGE WE MAKE IS THAT PART OF PREVENTING CREEP. ANYTHING THAT WE DO THAT CHANGES. IT HAS THIS KIND OF HARD SET. YOU CAN'T GO CLOSER TO THE LAKE THAN WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE. YOU CAN'T USE WHATEVER THIS NEW MECHANISM IS TO NOW START MOVING HOUSES CLOSER TO THE LAKE. THAT WILL GIVE YOU SOME TOOL TO MAKE IT EASIER TO FIGURE IT OUT WHAT IT IS. BUT THAT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE. MY HOUSE WAS HERE. IT WAS 785FT FROM THE LAKE. I CAN NEVER GO CLOSER THAN 85 HERE. IF THE HOUSE IS SLANTED AND IT'S 90 HERE, LIKE THAT LINE, THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME KIND OF A MAXIMUM THERE, THOUGH. ONE OF THE VERY FIRST EXAMPLES THAT WAS SHOWN THERE HAPPENS TO BE A HOUSE THAT IS 200FT BACK. I DON'T, BUT THAT'S WHERE I SAY LIKE, IF YOU HAVE THAT MY HOUSE WAS HERE, I CAN REBUILD INTO THIS ENVELOPE OR WHERE MY HOUSE IS, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THESE OTHER ONES. I THINK THAT'S KIND OF A STARTING POINT. BUT I WOULD I WOULD LOOK FOR SOME EXAMPLES. SO IF WE HAVE AN INCLINE, SO IF SOMEONE HAS A HOUSE AND THEY WANT TO JUST REBUILD THE EXACT SAME HOUSE AND IT'S NON-CONFORMING, IT'S IN ALL THE SETBACKS, IT'S IN ALL THE WORST SPOTS AND THE WORST LOCATIONS AND ALL THE, THE BAD. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO REBUILD THAT AND HAS AN EXISTING, THEY CAN REBUILD IT FOLLOWING OUR DEFINITION OF IN-KIND REPLACEMENT, WHICH IS AN EXACT REPLACEMENT. YOU HAVE THIS CUBE OF A BUILDING HEIGHT, TALL, WIDE HARDCOVER SPACE. YOU CAN KEEP, MAINTAIN, REBUILD EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE ANY NEW PROTRUSIONS, WHETHER IT'S UP, OUT, DOWN, SIDEWAYS, ANY NEW PROTRUSIONS IN THAT NON-CONFORMING SPACE IS WHAT WOULD TRIGGER A VARIANCE. AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK, HOWEVER WE WRITE IT, THAT WE ALLOW IT TO GO UP, JUST NOT CLOSER TO THE LAKE. WE, WE, WE GIVE IT SOMETHING THAT'S MORE CLEAR AND SAYS, HERE YOU HAVE A NON-CONFORMING HOUSE TO STAND POINT. IT'S IN FRONT OF THE ALS OR WHATEVER THIS NEW MECHANISM IS, WE FIGURE IT OUT. BUT YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO BE LIMITED TO 89FT FROM THE LAKE OR 90 OR WHATEVER THAT IS. AND THEN IF YOU GO HIGHER, YOU FIND YOU GO HIGHER. THAT ME THINKING OUTSIDE. IN THE IN ALL THE THE WAY THE CODE IS WRITTEN, IT'S VERY MUCH THAT MEASUREMENT. AND IT'S REALLY JUST TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, LOTS THAT ARE NON-CONFORMING WITH RESPECT TO AREA, THE MINIMUM FRONT YARD SETBACK AND ACCESSORY BUILDINGS THAT ARE LESS THAN 1000FT² SHALL BE EQUAL TO THE AVERAGE DEPTHS OF THE EXISTING FRONT YARDS ON THE ADJACENT LOTS ON EACH SIDE. YOU KNOW, THE STREET YARD SETBACK FRONT YARD. BUT WE DO HAVE A NOT LESS THAN THAT, BUT THAT, THAT DOES KIND OF SPEAK TO THAT MEASURED AVERAGING ON THE STREET, NOT ON THE LAKE, BUT IT'S THE SAME PRINCIPLE OAKDEN, I, I DIDN'T WANT TO GO UNTIL. DO YOU HAVE MORE? OKAY, GOOD. WANT TO MAKE SURE. I DO NOT. OKAY. SO I THINK THIS IS THE THIRD TIME THIS HAS COME UP SINCE I'VE BEEN ON PLANNING COMMISSION. AND I'LL RESTATE THE SAME THING I SAID BEFORE. IT'S NOT THE AVERAGE STRUCTURE SETBACK. IT'S THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. WHAT WE'RE DOING IS MEASURING STRUCTURE AND WHERE IT IS FROM THE NEIGHBORING STRUCTURE. WE'RE MEASURING THE LAKESHORE SETBACK. WE SHOULD BE MEASURING IT FROM THE LAKESHORE. SO IF THE NEIGHBORING PROPERTY IS 80FT AND THE PROPERTY ON THE OTHER SIDE IS 90FT AND THE AVERAGE IS 85. AND THAT'S HOW I WOULD ALWAYS LOOK AT THAT. YOU GET INTO THESE WEIRD THINGS WHEN YOU HAVE NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES AND ALL THOSE THINGS, BUT IT'S NOT APPLICABLE BECAUSE I THINK IT'S CONTRADICTORY. WE HAVE THE SAME DISCUSSIONS WHEN YOU HAVE DEVELOPMENTS AND PEOPLE HAVE PROPERTY THAT'S ZONED FOR DENSITY, [01:25:03] AND WE SAY IT'S GUIDED TO DO THAT. SO YOU CAN'T REALLY STOP SOMEBODY FROM DEVELOPING THEIR PROPERTY. IF IT'S GUIDED TO DO THAT AND THEY MEET THE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS. SO IF WE'RE GOING DOWN THE ROAD OF SAYING, WELL, BECAUSE THIS LOT'S VACANT TO PRESERVE SETBACKS, NOW WE'RE TELLING PEOPLE THAT OWN LAND, THAT THEY CAN'T DO IT. AND THAT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE IN ITSELF. AND THAT PUTS NEIGHBORS IN REALLY DIFFICULT POSITIONS TOO. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S UNFAIR FOR THE NEIGHBORS TO HAVE TO WEIGH IN ON. AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT GOES BACK TO THE SAME THING WITH DEVELOPMENTS. IF YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE DEVELOPED, THEN BUY IT. OTHERWISE, IT'S THE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS OR THE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS. THAT'S WHERE I'VE ALWAYS HAD A DIFFICULTY WITH THIS. SECONDARY TO THAT IS. WHAT WE HAVE. I THINK IT'S BEEN CALLED OUT IS WHEN YOU HAVE SUCH A HIGH PERCENTAGE THAT WE'RE APPROVING AND A HIGH PERCENTAGE THAT ARE APPLYING, IT ABSOLUTELY MEANS THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SOME SORT OF ADJUSTMENT TO ALLOW THESE PEOPLE TO NOT HAVE TO APPLY FOR A VARIANCE. BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER. I MEAN, I AGREE IT'S GOOD TO HAVE EYES BECAUSE EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT, BUT IT'S GLARING. AND I SAID IT BEFORE. AND SO YOU MAKE YOU MAKE STEPS. SO MAYBE YOU DON'T WANT TO OVERCORRECT IT AND PROVIDE A VULNERABILITY. BUT I THINK THAT THERE'S, THERE'S THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO. SO IF YOU HAVE IF YOU WANT TO MEASURE BY THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, TRULY WHAT AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK I WOULD START WITH BY SAYING IS, YOU KNOW, YOU STILL HAVE TO MEET THE 75FT REGARDLESS. AND YOU, YOU EITHER SAY YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF MEASURING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK BY THE LAKESHORE, THE STRUCTURE, OR EVEN THE SECONDARY STRUCTURE NEXT TO IT. SO IF, IF THE, IF THERE'S A VACANT LOT IN BETWEEN, THEN IT CAN BE IGNORED AND MOVED ON TO THE NEXT ONE BECAUSE THAT'S TRULY YOUR AVERAGE. IF YOU'RE ONLY DEFINING AN AVERAGE BY THE NEXT HOUSE NEXT DOOR, THAT'S NOT AN AVERAGE. THAT'S THE NEXT DOOR HOUSE. SO TO TRY TO PUT THIS INTO SOMETHING THAT'S SCIENTIFIC, THAT AT LEAST WE DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S A VULNERABILITY. I THINK WE CAN START WITH SOMETHING THAT'S MAYBE NOT AS EXTREME AS JUST SAYING, WELL, IF IT'S 75FT, IT'S 75FT. BUT I'M HERE TO TELL YOU THAT I'D BE WILLING TO SUPPORT SOME SORT OF MEASUREMENT FROM LAKESHORE AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, AND THEN PLUG THAT INTO THE APPLICATIONS THAT WE'VE HAD AND FIND OUT HOW MANY OF THOSE WOULD WE HAVE APPROVED WITHOUT BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE THE CONTROL TO DENY IT. AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK YOU'RE COOKING WITH GAS LIKE IS, IS IT 100FT, YOU KNOW, AND YOU GO, OKAY, WELL, WE APPROVED, WE DENIED THIS ONE. WE DENIED THIS ONE. AND IT WAS, IT WAS IT WAS 90, YOU KNOW, BUT SO WE WOULD HAVE BEEN VULNERABLE. WE WOULD HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO DENY THAT APPLICATION. IF WE CAN GET THAT DATA, YOU KNOW, OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, I MEAN, 43%, 52%, 34%, WHATEVER THOSE NUMBERS ARE, LET'S FIND OUT WHAT THAT IS. WHAT IS THE. IF YOU'RE MEASURING. AND AGAIN, I HOPE IT'S NOT HARD BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW WE'RE MEASURING IT [LAUGHTER]. BUT IF WE FIND OUT WHAT THAT NUMBER IS, IF IT'S 100FT AS AN ALTERNATIVE, AGAIN, THAT'S ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO. SO AGAIN, IF YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT LIKE SIDE SETBACKS AND SAY, WELL, YOU GOT TO BE WITHIN TEN FEET, BUT IF THE NEIGHBORS ARE 20FT, YOU GOT TO BE 20FT AWAY FROM, [LAUGHTER] WE WOULD BE LIKE, WELL, THAT'S CRAZY TALK, RIGHT? WELL, WE'RE TRYING TO PRESERVE THE NEIGHBOR'S SIDE YARD VIEW [LAUGHTER] YOU KNOW, AND I MEAN, THE JURY IS OUT, YOU KNOW, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE LAKE MINNETONKA HAS BEEN DEVELOPED. SO THIS IS, [LAUGHTER] YOU KNOW, SO WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? YOU KNOW, MORE IMPORTANTLY IS YOU'RE RUNNING INTO JUST MORE FUNK THAN ANYTHING ELSE. AND SO YOU END UP WITH NEIGHBORS THAT DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN SUPPORTIVE OF IT, BUT THEY COULD HAVE BOUGHT THAT VACANT LAND INSTEAD OF THE NEW PERSON. AND SO I GUESS THAT'S MY $0.02 IS I, I WAS, I WAS A PROPONENT OF MEASURING IT FROM THE ACTUAL LAKESHORE BECAUSE THAT IS THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE. I GUESS IF I'M GOING TO THROW A DART, I'M GOING TO SAY MEASURING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK BY THE ACTUAL SETBACK OF THE PROPERTY TO THE SHORELINE AND GIVING PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEASURE THAT ACTUAL SETBACK BY TAKING THE TWO ADJACENT PROPERTIES ON EACH SIDE AND COMING UP WITH WHATEVER THAT SETBACK IS FROM THE LAKESHORE TO THE STRUCTURE, COMING UP WITH THAT AVERAGE TO BE THE DETERMINING FACTOR. NOW PLUG THAT INTO EVEN IF IT'S AN EYEBALL, YOU KNOW, ONTO WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THESE APPLICATIONS, HOW MANY OF THOSE DID WE HAVE A VULNERABILITY ON? THAT'S WHERE I THINK WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUR ANSWER. YEAH. I THINK IT'S SIMPLY A MATH SOLUTION, WHICH YOU BASICALLY STATED. SO I THINK AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK LINE WORKS GREAT IN THEORY WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT AN OVAL SHAPED LAKE OR MANY OF THE OTHER TWIN CITIES' LAKES. [01:30:02] BUT LAKE MINNETONKA IS A VERY UNIQUE, VERY UNIQUE BODY OF WATER. SO I THINK THE CONCEPT'S GREAT AND APPLIES TO MOST LAKES. MAYBE CABIN COUNTRY TYPE STUFF. BUT FOR LAKE MINNETONKA, I THINK IT'S A MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION PROPOSED BY WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING IS MEASURING THE PROPERTY IN QUESTION, THEN LOOKING AT THE NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES AND THEN TAKING SOME SORT OF YOU'RE SAYING TAKE A TOTAL OF FIVE PROPERTIES IN EVERY LAKESHORE SETBACK TO ENSURE THE SAMPLE SIZE IS BIG ENOUGH, BUT NOT SO BIG THAT YOU'RE GETTING TOO FAR AWAY FROM THE INITIAL PROPERTY? RIGHT. YEAH. I MEAN, ISN'T THAT WHAT AVERAGES ARE? LAUGHTERNINE. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN GO DOWN THE IT'S SORT OF WHAT'S THAT RIGHT NUMBER FOR. RIGHT. DETERMINING THAT. YEAH. THAT AVERAGE AS YOU CAN TELL, I'M SUPER CONVICTED ON THIS BECAUSE I DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHY WE DIDN'T MAKE ANY PROGRESS ON THIS. THE LAST TIME WE TALKED ABOUT IT, I FEEL LIKE I WAS 11 YEARS OLD WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT IT. [LAUGHTER] EVERY SINGLE TIME WE SEE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, I'M LIKE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO CARE. IT'S GOING TO GET APPROVED BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT WHAT EVERYTHING ELSE IS INVOLVED. SO DO WE HAVE ANY EXAMPLES OF WHAT WE ACTUALLY DENIED? WE DENIED ONE LAST YEAR BECAUSE IT WAS AN ACCESSORY BUILDING. IT WAS AN LAKESHORE SETBACK. STAFF. SORRY TO INTERRUPT. ON THAT I GUESS ONE QUICKLY TWO POINTS, I GUESS JUST I WOULD SAY IS I REALLY STRUGGLE WITH ALS SINCE I'VE BEEN ON ON THE COMMISSION IS BUILDINGS MOVE. AND SO IT'S ALWAYS A MOVING TARGET. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE VARIANCES. AND THAT'S WHY THAT'S LIKE NUMBER ONE, THAT REALLY BOTHERS ME ABOUT THE WAY WE DO ALS CURRENTLY AND WHY I THINK IT SHOULD BE REVISED. AND THE SECOND IS EVERYTHING WE'RE LOOKING AT IS 2D. THE THING THAT WE DENIED WAS LIKE 60FT BELOW EYE LEVEL FROM THE, THE PRINCIPAL STRUCTURE AND I THINK THAT'S A LARGE PART OF MAYBE WHAT WE COULD BE MISSING WHEN DOING ALS THIS WAY. NOW, FRANKLY, I DON'T HAVE A SOLUTION IN FRONT OF ME RIGHT NOW TO SAY HOW TO DO IT. AND I DON'T WANT TO GO DOWN TOO MUCH OF A RABBIT HOLE, BUT I THINK ALS SHOULD BE COMPLETELY ABOLISHED. AND I THINK THERE SHOULD BE NO ORDINANCE. AND I THINK THAT THE STATE STATUTE THAT THE DNR PUTS FORWARD SHOULD BE WHAT WE FOLLOW. NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT'S NOT WHAT CITY COUNCIL AGREES WITH RIGHT NOW. AND IF I WANT TO GO FIGHT THAT FIGHT, I CAN. BUT I THINK THE CONCERN IS LAKE MASSING. IT'S NOT I DIDN'T HEAR ANY CONCERNS ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL HARDCOVER IS WHAT'S HELPING THE ENVIRONMENTAL OF THE LAKE SHED. I DON'T THINK MOVING STRUCTURES LAKEWARD BY ANY MEANS IS DOING DAMAGE TO LAKE. AND I'M NOT ENVIRONMENTALIST. I WOULD LOVE TO BE PROVEN WRONG IF THAT IS THE CASE. BUT THE HARDCOVER IS REALLY WHAT'S PRESERVING THE LAKE, WHICH IS OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, I THINK. I THINK THE LAKE MASSING, THE MASSING OF STRUCTURES LAKEWARD IS A CONCERN I'M HEARING FROM PEOPLE. BUT TO CHAIR'S POINT, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, GO BUY IT. YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S A LAKE THAT'S FURTHER TOWARDS THE LAKE THAT YOU WANT, THEN GO BUY IT. AND IF YOU DON'T LIVE ON THE LAKE AND YOU WANT TO PRESERVE THE LAKE, THEN GO BUY IT. THAT'S, THAT'S MY STANCE ON KIND OF THE OVERALL AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK AND WHERE WE CURRENTLY STAND. AND I THINK APPLYING THE DNR STATE STATUTE TO YOU GUY'S POINT ELIMINATES A LOT OF THIS. AND I WOULD ALSO BE IN FAVOR AT SOME POINT OF A SETBACK FROM THE ACTUAL LAKESHORE, NOT THE STRUCTURES AS CHAIR POINTED OUT. BUT AGAIN, IF YOU'RE AVERAGING TWO, FIVE, TEN AROUND THE LAKE, IT YOU'RE BASING ON BUILDINGS THAT WILL BE CONTINUOUSLY MOVING. AND I JUST THINK THAT'S UNFAIR. JUST OF NOTE, JUST TO CLARIFY SOME WITH COMMISSIONER BRANDABUR. THE 75 FOOT SETBACK IS OUR ENVIRONMENTAL SETBACK. SO PER DNR, WE DO HAVE AN ENVIRONMENTAL SETBACK FOR PROTECTION OF THE LAKESHORE, WHICH IS OUR LAKE SETBACK, AND IT'S DETERMINED BASED ON THE LAKE CLASSIFICATION. SO FOR LAKE MINNETONKA, IT'S 75FT. THE DNR SAYS 50FT. TRUE, THE DNR HAS A MINIMUM OF 50FT WE ADOPTED A MORE RESTRICTIVE LAKE SETBACK OF 75FT, WHICH IS ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THE DNR HAS, AND ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT MANY OF OUR NEIGHBORING LAKE CITIES HAVE. SO THAT IS OUR. THE PURPOSE OF THAT ORDINANCE IS TO PROTECT SHORELINE AND TO PROTECT MASSING CLOSE TO THE LAKE. THEN OUR HARDCOVER IS OUR STORMWATER MANAGEMENT REGULATION. SO THAT PREVENTS HELPS WITH RUNOFF AND WITH FILTRATION DOWN TO THE LAKE. AND THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE THOSE TIERS OF HARDCOVER WHERE THE LOTS ABUTTING LAKE ARE 25%, AND THEN IT GOES TO TIER 2, 30%, 35%, AND THEN FURTHER OVER 1000FT AWAY. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY STORM WATER OR HARDCOVER REGULATIONS. [01:35:01] BUT SO WE HAVE TWO ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS PUT ON LAKESHORE PROPERTIES CURRENTLY, WHICH IS THE LAKE SETBACK AND THE STORM WATER QUALITY TIER, WHICH IS OUR HARDCOVER. THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK, THE INTENDED PURPOSE WAS THE SIGHT LINE, NOT NECESSARILY AN ENVIRONMENTAL PURPOSE. IT RESULTS IN AN ENVIRONMENTAL OUTCOME BY PUSHING THINGS BACK OVER TIME. BUT THE PURPOSE OF THAT ORDINANCE WAS WRITTEN TO PROTECT SIGHT LINES. CONTRARY TO THE OTHER TWO. I, I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO REMEMBER THAT THAT OUR COMMUNITY THAT WE ARE REPRESENTING OUR COMMUNITY ON THIS COMMISSION AND THERE ARE SOME REALLY IMPORTANT ASPECTS TO PLANNING COMMISSION FOCUSED ON PRESERVING THE CHARACTER OF THE COMMUNITY. AND THAT MUCH OF THIS CODE IS FOCUSED ON PRESERVING THE CHARACTER OF THE COMMUNITY AS WELL AS PROPERTY VALUES. AND IF YOU MAKE A DRASTIC CHANGE TO WHERE PEOPLE CAN BUILD ON THEIR LOTS, THAT COULD DRASTICALLY CHANGE SIGHT LINES FROM HOMES THAT COULD HAVE A HUGE CONSEQUENCE ON PROPERTY VALUES AND CHARACTER OF THE COMMUNITY. SO WHILE I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND THAT YOU HAVE A, A STRONG VIEWPOINT ON THIS COMMISSIONER BRANDABUR, I JUST WANT TO VOICE A [LAUGHTER] CONTRARY OPINION THAT SOME KIND OF AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS STILL WARRANTED IN ORDER TO HELP PRESERVE THE CHARACTER, THE PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE SO IMPORTANT TO THIS COMMUNITY. I WOULD VERY MUCH BE IN FAVOR IN LOOKING AT THE WAY THAT WE'RE MEASURING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. I WOULD, AS I SAID EARLIER, BE VERY INTERESTED IN SEEING LANGUAGE AND HOW THE MATH WORKS AND EXAMPLES, AS COMMISSIONER RESSLER WAS MENTIONING BY TAKING THE SHORTEST DISTANCE FROM THE PRINCIPAL STRUCTURE TO THE LAKESHORE, LAKESHORE IS NOT STRAIGHT IN MOST CASES [LAUGHTER]. SO THAT'S WHY THAT TYPE OF APPROACH MAKES MORE LOGICAL SENSE TO ME. BUT I WOULD BE, I WOULD VERY MUCH BE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHERE THAT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL AND, AND OTHER EXAMPLES OF OTHER LAKESHORE COMMUNITIES AND WHAT THE RESULTS OF THAT KIND OF SETBACK ALLOWS FOR. I WOULD, I WOULD BE VERY CURIOUS IF WE LOOK AT OTHER YOU KNOW LAKESHORE COMMUNITIES WITH MANY HIGH-END HOMES ON THEM, IF WHAT THAT, WHAT THAT DOES, WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT TYPE OF MEASUREMENT WOULD BE. AND BUILD OFF THAT. I WOULD JUST SAY SPECIFICALLY TO THE POINT MADE EARLIER BY THE CHAIR IN THOSE CITIES, ARE THEY DEFINING IT AS FIVE PROPERTIES WHEN THEY DETERMINE THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK? IS IT LIKE, WHAT IS THAT NUMBER? AND HOW MUCH VARIANCE DO WE SEE? DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERE IS SORT OF A BEST PRACTICE THERE? YEAH. SO I HAVE SOME DATA AND I CAN EXPAND ON IT. NEXT TIME I BRING THE SUBJECT FORWARD, I HAVE SOME DATA. MINNETONKA BEACH JUST IMPLEMENTED AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IN 2023. THEY NOTED IT'S A, IT'S WHERE YOUR NEIGHBORS ARE SIMILAR TO US. AND THEN THEY HAVE AN EXCEPTION FOR DECKS BUILT IN THERE. AND THEY HAVEN'T GRANTED ANY VARIANCES SINCE 2023 AND IMPLEMENTING AN AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK. WAYZATA HAS A LINE THAT THEY DRAW, AND THEY SAID THEY RARELY GIVE A VARIANCE MAYBE ONCE A YEAR. AND THERE'S THIS. SO THEY, THEY DRAW A LINE AND THEY CALCULATE A LINE AND THEY TAKE THE MORE RESTRICTIVE OF THE TWO TO BE APPLIED ON THE PROPERTY. MINNETRISTA THEY MAKE THE APPLICANT DRAW A LINE LIKE US AND CALCULATE THE LINE, BUT THEY APPLY THE LESS RESTRICTIVE OF THE LINE. AND MINNETRISTA NOTED THAT THEY HAVE NOT GRANTED VARIANCES FOR THEIRS. SO SOMETHING THAT IS UNIFORM WHEN LOOKING AT THOSE CITIES IS WHEN ASKED DO YOU DEAL WITH VARIANCES? HOW ARE YOU HANDLING THIS? ALMOST ALL THE CITIES SAY THEY RARELY GRANT VARIANCES OR VERY RARELY GET VARIANCE REQUESTS. AND THEY HOLD THE LINE VERY STRICTLY ABOUT ENCROACHMENTS BEYOND THEIR AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK LINE. THAT'S A IT'S A SMALL SNAPSHOT. AND WHEN I BRING THIS FORWARD, I'M HEARING YOU'D LIKE ADDITIONAL RESEARCH AND MORE INFORMATION ON HOW, HOW OTHER CITIES ARE DEALING WITH AVERAGE LAKESHORE AND HOW THEIR CODE IS WRITTEN. SO I CAN EXPAND ON THAT. BRINGING THIS FORWARD AGAIN, I APPRECIATE THAT. AND I'M GOING TO THROW A DART BECAUSE I THINK WE GOT TO START SOMEWHERE. AND I, AND I THINK IT'S, I THINK IT'S GOT TO BE MEASURED. YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE A MISTAKE AND OVER. AND LEAP OVER IT. [01:40:01] YOU KNOW, I THINK I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT THE SIGN ORDINANCES, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE WERE WAY TOO CONSERVATIVE IN OUR COMMERCIAL SIGNAGE. AND I FEEL LIKE I'M REALLY PROUD THAT WE MADE THAT CHANGE BECAUSE WE, IN HINDSIGHT, THAT'S, THAT WAS A GOOD MOVE BECAUSE WE DIDN'T LOOK BACK AND FEEL LIKE THAT WAS A VULNERABILITY. SO I'M GOING TO SAY THAT I'M GOING TO, I'M GOING TO CALL IT LIKE AN OUTLIER CLAUSE WHERE IF YOU HAVE A PROPERTY THAT YOU'VE, YOU, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY OF TAKING THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK MEASURED FROM THE SHORELINE. AND YOU CAN GO THREE PROPERTIES ON EACH SIDE. AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE HEAVY LIFTING FOR A SURVEYOR, BECAUSE ALL THEY'RE DOING IS MEASURING THE CLOSEST POINT TO THE SHORELINE. SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING IS LIKE, WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR AN APPLICANT AND HAVE THEM SURVEY SIX PROPERTIES. [LAUGHTER]. BUT IF YOU'RE JUST DOING A POINT OF THE CLOSEST POINT FROM THE PROPERTY TO THE SHORELINE, AND YOU HAVE THREE OF THEM, AND YOU'VE GOT ONE OUTLIER, THAT'S 190FT, AND ALL THE OTHER ONES ARE 70. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN HAVE THAT OUTLIER THROWN OUT OF YOUR AVERAGE. AND THAT IS ESTABLISHING AN AVERAGE. IT'S YOUR TYPICAL BELL CURVE CONVERSATION. I THINK THAT THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO START. I WOULD CHALLENGE US TO SAY, IS THERE ANY THAT WE WOULDN'T HAVE APPROVED? YOU KNOW, IF WE HAD THAT IN PLACE BECAUSE THAT SKIPS TWO MONTHS OF APPLICATIONS THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET APPROVED ANYWAY. WE START THERE. AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN, YOU KNOW, WE CAN ENHANCE IT IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT. BUT I DO FEEL LIKE I AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER PRCHAL. LIKE, YOU KNOW, THINK OF BOHNS POINT, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S AN APPLICATION ON BOHNS POINT TODAY. YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BACKSIDE OF BOHNS POINT ON CRYSTAL BAY, THERE'S MOST OF THE PROPERTIES ON THAT BACK SIDE OF BOHNS POINT IS ABOUT 300FT. AND IF SO. SO IF WE CHANGE IT TO 100, ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU CAN HAVE ALL THESE GIANT HOUSES COME ALL THE WAY UP TO 100FT. AND AGAIN, LIKE THE CAPITALIST IN ME IS LIKE, WELL, WHY NOT? IT'S MY PROPERTY. I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO. [LAUGHTER]. BUT THOSE ARE BEAUTIFUL LAWNS. AND LIKE, AGAIN, THAT'S THE CHARACTER THAT'S UNIQUE ABOUT ORONO. I'M LIKE, THEY'VE GOT LIKE THE DEVIL AND THE ANGEL ON EACH SHOULDER ON THAT. BUT I THINK THE POINT OF IT IS THEY WANT TO PRESERVE THAT. SO AGAIN, IF THE AVERAGE IS 300FT FOR THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD, THAT'S US WALKING, NOT RUNNING, YOU KNOW IF WE EVENTUALLY GET THERE AND EVOLVE TO SAYING, WELL, THAT'S STILL SILLY, OKAY, MAYBE THAT'S NOT NOW LET'S START SOMEWHERE. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT PLACE TO START. THAT'S MY LIKE TANGIBLE FEEDBACK THAT I WOULD, THAT I WOULD GIVE. WHEN YOU HAVE THOSE LARGER DRIVEWAYS AND MORE HARDCOVER, IT CHOOSES, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE THEN RIGHT. THIS IS AN EXTREME EXAMPLE OF THAT, WHERE THEY HAVE THE LONGEST DRIVEWAY YEAH YOU'RE. REALLY DRIVING THE HOUSE TO BE AS FAR AWAY FROM THE LAKE. YES. BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THE HARDCOVER SPACE TO PUSH IT ANY CLOSER. YEAH. SAME WITH THESE PROPERTIES. A LOT OF THE TIMES THESE ARE VERY LARGE PLATS, VERY BIG SETBACKS. BUT STILL THAT HARDCOVER IS DRAWING THE HOUSES KIND OF CLOSER TO THE STREET, CREATING LARGE LAKE YARDS BECAUSE DO THEY WANT A SMALL HOUSE. YES. HAVE IT UP BY THE LAKE AND HAVE BIG OLD DRIVEWAYS. OR DO THEY WANT A BIGGER HOUSE BUT CLOSER TO THE STREET? I MEAN, THAT IS THE DECISIONS WE TALK TO PEOPLE CONSTANTLY ABOUT WHEN THEY'RE IN THE DESIGN PHASE. AND JUST TO TRANSLATE THAT FOR SOME OF THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T PICK UP ON IT, WHAT MS. CURTIS IS SAYING IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S PROTECTIONS IN PLACE THAT ALLOW US TO LOOK AT THINGS BECAUSE IT'S A TRIGGER OF A DIFFERENT ITEM. SO IT'S NOT LIKE WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE THE DISCRETION OF LOOKING AT THIS BY TAKING THIS ARROW OUT OF OUR QUIVER, BECAUSE THERE MIGHT BE AN APPLICATION ON CASCO THAT DOESN'T MEET HARDCOVER BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY LONG DRIVEWAY, BUT THAT ALSO LETS US LOOK AT THE SCOPE OF THE WHOLE THING. AND DOES HAVE US HAVE THE DISCRETION OF HAVE THAT SAY. SO I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD POINT. THAT'S WHY AGAIN, THAT'S WHY I'M REALLY CONVICTED IN THIS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S ANY OTHER MEASURED SUGGESTIONS, I'M ALL FOR IT. THEN THAT GIVES LAURA AND THE REST OF THE TEAM TO, YOU KNOW, GO BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AND SEE WHAT THAT TURNS INTO. BUT THAT WOULD BE AWESOME IF WE COULD MAKE SOME PROGRESS ON THAT. THAT'S A LOT OF APPLICATIONS THAT WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK AT RIGHT, THE 75FT, WHATEVER THIS ALS AND WHERE THE EXISTING HOUSE AND THE FARTHEST AWAY FROM THE LAKE OF THOSE THREE THINGS. WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF THE THINGS ABOUT KEEPING THE CHARACTER, RIGHT? WE'RE PREVENTING THIS GRADUAL MOVING CLOSER TO THE LAKE THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING, KEEPING THE COTTAGE ESQUE FEEL OF ORONO WHERE HOUSES AREN'T LOOKING LIKE YOU'RE DRIVING DOWN SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE THEY'RE ALL IDENTICAL AND THEY'RE ALL TINTED FROM EACH OTHER. AND I THINK WE COULD TEST THAT, TAKE THE LAST FIVE APPROVED VARIANCES AND THEN SAY, WHAT DOES IT DO? [01:45:01] DO WE APPROVE FOUR OF THOSE FIVE OR DO WE ONLY APPROVE ONE? AND THEN WE KIND OF KNOW IF. WE APPROVE ALMOST. I THINK WE 90% I THINK OUT OF TEN. I THINK THE POINT IS NO WHAT I MEAN IS WE TAKE. BUT APPLYING THE NEW STANDARD. USE IT AS A USE CASE. YOU TAKE THE LAST FIVE THAT YOU APPROVED AND SAY, HEY, DID WE, YOU KNOW, TAKE FOUR, YOU KNOW, FOUR OUT OF FIVE OUT OF THE HOPPER. I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT THAT BUT IF 90% OF THEM WOULD HAVE BEEN APPROVED WITHOUT IT [LAUGHTER]. THEN WE KNOW WE'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING. YOU KNOW, THAT'S 75%. I MEAN, JUST GIVE US SOMETHING THAT MAKES THIS A LITTLE BIT LESS INTRUSIVE BECAUSE AGAIN, FOR THE RESIDENTS, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE, LIKE WE SAID, WE ARE HERE FOR EVERYBODY. YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT THAT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, LIKE, GEEZ, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SO COMMON SENSE. YOU GOT TO WAIT TWO MONTHS AND YOU GOT TO SUBMIT AN APPLICATION. [LAUGHTER]. SO IT'S REALLY LIKE THREE MONTHS. YEAH. AND LIKE THIS, THIS STATE IS ONLY NICE FOR ONLY FOUR MONTHS. [LAUGHTER]. SO ANYWAY, HOPEFULLY THAT'S HELPFUL. I DON'T FEEL LIKE WE THIS IS NOT A MOTION SITUATION. THIS IS JUST FEEDBACK. SO I'M HEARING FROM THE COMMISSION THAT YOU WANT TO EXPLORE OPTIONS, SOME DIFFERENT TOOLS TO REWORK THIS, SOME MORE INFORMATION ON WHAT NEIGHBORING CITIES DO OR NEIGHBORING LAKE CITIES DO, HOW THEY APPLY IT, WHAT THAT LANGUAGE LOOKS LIKE, AND THEN SOME LANGUAGE ABOUT APPLYING. IF WE REWROTE THE CODE FROM A MEASURED STANDPOINT INSTEAD OF A STRUCTURAL STANDPOINT, MAYBE AN OVERALL MEASURED OR BY ZONING DISTRICT OR BY WITH MULTIPLE NEIGHBORHOOD AVERAGES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO A FEW DIFFERENT OPTIONS OF CREATING KIND OF A MEASURED SETBACK TO THEN CREATE THOSE LINES AND HAVE SOME COMPARISONS TO KIND OF HAVE SOME CASE STUDIES ON. YEAH. I DIDN'T HEAR US TALK ABOUT ZONING OR GROUPING. I THINK IT'S MORE ABOUT HAVING DIRECT LINES TO THE SHORELINE FROM THE HOUSES, KNOWING THAT THE SHORELINE IS NOT STRAIGHT. YEAH. SO I THINK I WAS YES, WHAT I, WHAT I WAS HEARING FOR A WHILE THERE WAS THE CONVERSATION ON SOME OF THESE LARGE LOTS VERSUS TIGHTER LOTS LIKE CASCO VERSUS OVER ON FOX AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO THE IDEA OF A MEASURED AVERAGE, BUT A MEASURED AVERAGE ON THAT FOX STREET IS GOING TO BE EVERYONE'S IN THE 400, 500, 600FT FOR THEIR AVERAGES WHERE CASCO IN THE TIGHTER DISTRICT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE RIGHT AT THE 75 OR 80. HOUSES THAT ARE IN PROXIMITY TO THE APPLICANT'S HOUSE. RIGHT. YEP. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO MAKE IT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT BUT. I THINK SHE'S PROPOSING THAT THERE'S ANOTHER OPTION. WE CLEARLY DIDN'T TALK ABOUT, BUT YOU COULD SAY ON CASCO POINT THE AVERAGE LAKESHORE SETBACK IS X. WITHOUT HAVING TO DO THE NEIGHBORING CALCULATION JUST ON CASCO EVERYTHING ADDS 100FT I THINK THAT ADDS COMPLEXITY PERSONALLY. YEAH IT DOES. I MEAN I THINK IT'S I MEAN BECAUSE YOU LOOK AT THE COST RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHY I DON'T WANT TO DO HEAVY SURVEY STUFF. LIKE IF IT'S JUST POINT A TO POINT B, THIS IS THE CLOSEST POINT THAT GIVES THEM AN OPTION OF NOT WASTING THREE MONTHS OF THE PROCESS. SO THEY MIGHT PAY AN EXTRA $1,000 TO SKIP THREE MONTHS AND HAVE US TALK ABOUT IT. AT LEAST IT GIVES THEM AN OPTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I MEAN, I COMMISSIONER WELTZIN. I THINK YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT. YOU'RE TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO HOLD ON TO. BUT THE EASY WAY TO DO THAT IS TO SAY, IF THERE'S OUTLIERS, THEN YOU CAN THROW IT OUT, RIGHT? BECAUSE THE NEIGHBORHOOD IS DICTATING IT. SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHY YOU'RE CALLING CASCO, BECAUSE CASCO IS THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT'S DICTATING IT. SO IF YOU SAY YOUR NEIGHBORS, YOUR PEERS, THOSE ARE YOUR STANDARDS AND YOU'RE NOT JUST MEASURING THE FIRST ONE DIRECTLY NEXT TO YOU AND YOU'RE EVEN SAYING, OKAY, IF THE ONE DIRECTLY NEXT TO YOU IS VACANT, IT'S NOT GOING TO SKEW ALL THE OTHER AVERAGES. BECAUSE IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, 500 BECAUSE IT'S A VACANT LOT AND ALL THE OTHER ONES ARE 50. WELL, ALL OF A SUDDEN [LAUGHTER] YOUR NUMBERS GET SKEWED QUICKLY. SO I'M GOING TO CALL IT AN OUTLIER CLAUSE WHERE YOU CAN THROW THAT ONE OUT AND USE THE AVERAGE OF THE OTHER FOUR. SEE WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE LAURA. YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S MY FEEDBACK. HOPEFULLY THAT'S HELPFUL. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU FEEL LIKE THAT'S ENOUGH. YEAH, I THINK THAT'S GIVE STAFF SOME DIRECTION TO WORK ON SOMETHING. WE'LL START PUTTING STUFF TOGETHER AND I CAN PROVIDE KIND OF AN UPDATE ON IF IT'S KIND OF FORMING INTO SOMETHING WHERE WE WANT. WE'LL, WE'LL PUT SOMETHING TOGETHER AND THEN WE'LL KIND OF DETERMINE IF WE CAN GET IT ON A REGULAR AGENDA OR IF IT'S SOMETHING WE'LL CALL A WORK SESSION FOR. AND I'LL GIVE UPDATES ON THAT AS WE KIND OF CALCULATE SOME OF THAT INFORMATION. YES. OTHER ITEMS. LET'S SEE HERE. SO JUST TO MENTION, THE DUE TO POLL IS OUT FOR A WORK SESSION TO BE SCHEDULED. IT LOOKS LIKE WEDNESDAY, JUNE 3RD. I THINK EVERYONE CAN GO TO EXCEPT I'M SORRY COMMISSIONER PRCHAL. [01:50:03] I THINK EVERYBODY ELSE AND I STILL HAVE TO HEAR BACK FROM ONE MORE COMMISSIONER. SO IF IT WORKS FOR THEM, I'LL SCHEDULE IT THEN. OTHERWISE IF I HEAR CONFLICTS, A FEW MORE CONFLICTS, YOU MIGHT SEE ANOTHER DUE TO POLL COME OUT, BUT TENTATIVELY. I'LL SET IT FOR JUNE 3RD AS OF RIGHT NOW, 05:00 TO 6:00 HERE. AND IT'S A WORK SESSION FOR LEGAL REVIEW FOR OUR CITY ATTORNEY TO COME THROUGH AND JUST WORK THROUGH THE REGULATIONS AND PARAMETERS OF THE OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION, WHERE I'LL INVITE ALTERNATES AND EVERYONE CAN COME. SO WANT TO CALL OUT THE DUE TO POLL AND THEN JUST AS A UPDATE. WE ARE STARTING KIND OF TO TURN THE GEARS FOR A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE THAT'S GOING TO START GET GOING HERE ON THE LATER HALF OF THE YEAR. THE CITY HAS IMPLEMENTED A COMMUNITY SURVEY WHICH SHOULD BE LAUNCHING HERE IN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO. SO WATCH FOR YOUR MAILBOXES. THAT WILL HELP INFORM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. AND THEN WE'LL BE HOSTING AN OPEN HOUSE HERE IN THE BEGINNING OF JUNE. I THINK IT WAS IN THE NEWSLETTERS THAT WENT OUT, BUT JUNE 10TH HERE IN THIS ROOM FROM 5:00 TO 7:00 WILL BE AN OPEN HOUSE, JUST INFORMATION SESSION PEOPLE TO LEARN ABOUT THE COMP PLAN, SIGN UP IF PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN JOINING THE REVIEW COMMITTEE, I'M SURE THERE WILL BE AN ELEMENT IN THERE WHERE WE WILL ASK PLANNING COMMISSION AND PARK COMMISSIONERS, A REPRESENTATIVE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CODE REVIEW COMMITTEE PROCESS FOR THE COMP PLAN. SO JUST TO START THINKING IF YOU HAVE INTEREST IN THAT. IT IS KIND OF COMING UP HERE IN THE SUMMER, WE'LL BE START ENGAGING IN THAT. SO JUST TO CALL OUT THAT KIND OF PROJECT ON THE FOREFRONT. AS JUST HOUSEKEEPING THERE WERE TWO APPLICATIONS THAT WENT TO COUNCIL, I THINK 900 DAKOTA AND 356 WEST LAKE STREET, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY A LAKESHORE SETBACK. THEY BOTH WENT ON COUNCIL FOR APPROVAL FOLLOWING YOUR RECOMMENDATION. SO THOSE WERE IN LINE WITH YOUR RECOMMENDATION. WITH THAT, I THINK THAT'S IT. UNLESS YOU HAVE ANYTHING FOR STAFF. WE HEAR A MOTION. [LAUGHTER]. MAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN. DO WE HAVE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SAY AYE. AYE. CARRIES. THANK YOU. THANKS, EVERYBODY. * This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.